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 Posted: Mar 30, 2012 06:32AM
Total posts: 7453
Last post: Sep 16, 2014
Member since:Dec 13, 2001
US
Alright, finally got that last piston out, and it's now soaking with the cam, lifters, other pistons and crank in a vat of vinegar.

I moved on to my other engine, and started to take apart, so I could look at the gearbox. This engine appears in good shap. It turns over with no issues, and my original plan was to use the inno motor with the D topped pistons, and use the remote gearbox under this other motor. My plan may have just changed completely,and I may use this 8G, motor, with the rod change. Will this motor work with my 295 head with no issues? How do I clean up the head, and get that black stuff out? How do I get this black stuff off the piston tops? Aslo, how does this gear box look? It's my remote shift, and I see a couple of chips on the teeth of the small end of the layshaft(?). Also, can I use this crank as is? I assume I'll need to clean the tail up before I use it... how do I do that?

Chipped teeth here:

Crank tail:

How do I get this off?

Chipped teeth:

"I reject your reality, and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
 Posted: Mar 26, 2012 08:43AM
Total posts: 8019
Last post: Sep 19, 2014
Member since:Mar 24, 1999
GB

Put the end cap back on the rod and try tapping the rod - it ought to be strong enough !!

Metric is for people who can't do fractions...

 Posted: Mar 26, 2012 07:14AM
Total posts: 7453
Last post: Sep 16, 2014
Member since:Dec 13, 2001
US
Well,

I've got the crank, 3 rods with pistons, a cam, and 8 lifters sitting in a rubbermaid bin of apple cider vinegar.

I soaked the bottom of the frozen piston for a week, and give it whack with a wooden block from the top, and it moved down. I could not get it to go up (can't find a piece of wood strong enough, and small enough to get that piston up). I've got the block turned the other way now (right side up), and will let is soak some more. Hopefully can get that sucker to move.

Still can't get the damn distributor out!

Should I soak the head in the vinegar too?

How to I clean all this stuff up, once I soak this stuff? How does the black stuff come off the tops of the pistons, and inside the head? Nylon brush?

Will a 12G295 head work ok with dished pistons? (my other block which spins)

"I reject your reality, and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
 Posted: Mar 16, 2012 05:51AM
Total posts: 2361
Last post: Sep 19, 2014
Member since:Oct 8, 2011
US

Appears to be a 4 synchro box I like them. Till stripped cleaned and inspected hard to say what you have there. Rust damage is going to be the problem. A couple of teeth pitted down below the hardness make the whole gear suspect. Good news same gears as a pre A+ rod which you should be able to pick up reasonable.

Dip stick, I place a flat washer (tight fit) over the shank of phillips screw driver place in dip tube from bottom drive out. Dizzy drive if dizzy is still in place remove 5/16 bolts and see if it will pull out. You need to get to the 5/15 bolt that holds the spindle retainer in place then get it out. You may have to break one or both depending on rust.

#2 piston try placing the correct cap (each rod has it's own cap) on the rod, tighten the bolts snug. Give it a good wack holding the rod as in line with the bore as possible. I'd use a 10 lb rubber mallet of a dead blow plastic hammer. We are driving on the bottom of the rod now. It may make the rod out of round but we can get rods. God help us we should hurt one of those pistons. If you have access to a press set it up and put some pressure on it. Failing that take a wiz wheel saw the block in half either side of that bore and send that one to Alex.  ( That is a joke ) I'd say considering the condition of that bore you are looking at a bore job and a set of pistons.

CTR

 Posted: Mar 16, 2012 04:22AM
Total posts: 7453
Last post: Sep 16, 2014
Member since:Dec 13, 2001
US
Well, got good and greasy last night.. as expected #2 cylinder is frozen in place. The gear box looks to be in really good condition (except for the goop at the bottom). Not that I really know what I'm looking at. Take a look at my gearbox, and let me know if you see good things or bad.

Also, another question, how do I remove the dipstick tube, and the distributor? I forgot to take pictures of the crank and rods, so I'm not sure what to look for there either.

"I reject your reality, and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
 Posted: Mar 15, 2012 02:29PM
Total posts: 2361
Last post: Sep 19, 2014
Member since:Oct 8, 2011
US

Yes, out the top.

CTR

 Posted: Mar 15, 2012 01:51PM
Total posts: 7453
Last post: Sep 16, 2014
Member since:Dec 13, 2001
US
thanks for all the input guys.. I hope to get the block off the box tonight, and get the crank out of there. Do I need to push the pistons from the bottom through the top?

"I reject your reality, and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
 Posted: Mar 14, 2012 02:37PM
Total posts: 2361
Last post: Sep 19, 2014
Member since:Oct 8, 2011
US

Well there you go. One man's junk. Looking at a couple of the pistons it will be interesting to see how they clean up. If I get any more D crown pistons I'll save them for you. They would work well with a 295 head. Of course you can shave the head to reach the same CR with a flat top. It's a funny market we play in. Having worked in an auto machine shop from 1975 though 2000 I have seen rods beat, blocks with split cyls. all to save a piston not worth saving. These may come out get rings and go right on. I'm not sure that would be my approach. What are complete 333 trannys bringing on that side now?

CTR   

 Posted: Mar 14, 2012 09:09AM
Total posts: 8019
Last post: Sep 19, 2014
Member since:Mar 24, 1999
GB

I'm going to contradict CTR - and make sure I'm on solid ground when doing so...

The D-crown pistons are worth more than the block - save the pistons even at the expense of the block.
A 998 block is pence, those pistons are hundreds of dollars.  If they are oversize at all, they are many hundreds of dollars even second hand needing rings.

Split the engine from the gearbox, and then remove the crank.  From experience, once the crank is out the pistons will move quite freely.
With the crank still in place, all you are doing it trying to move ALL FOUR stuck pistons by hitting ONE of them - it ain't never gonna happen, you will just break something.

 

Metric is for people who can't do fractions...

 Posted: Mar 14, 2012 09:01AM
Total posts: 1812
Last post: Sep 14, 2014
Member since:Jul 13, 1999
Yeah I whacked a piston out of a formula ford block only to have it shift crooked on the way out. Yep cracked the block!!

 Posted: Mar 14, 2012 08:43AM
Total posts: 6150
Last post: Sep 18, 2014
Member since:May 23, 2002

Fill the cylinders with vinegar like Steve said and quit WHACKING the tops of the pistons.  You will mess something up if you keep doing that.  Once the engine frees up from the vinegar it will turn over with no problem.

"Retired:  No Job, No Money, Wife and I!  Will travel anywhere for Minis"

hockey91dad@hotmail.com

 Posted: Mar 14, 2012 06:10AM
Total posts: 7453
Last post: Sep 16, 2014
Member since:Dec 13, 2001
US
Thanks Steve, I appreciate the help. Last night I was out there again, prepping to seperate the block from the transmission. I removed the flywheel, which came off, with relative ease. I've been soaking the pistons with PB blaster, and just last night filled them with apple cider vinegar. I've got a wooden curtain rod, just smaller then the diamater of the bores, so I continue to give the piston tops a whack with no luck. I was hoping, maybe there was an issue with the gearbox, as to the reason why the crank wouldnt move. but no such luck.

I removed the flywheel and main gear, along with the engine plate and cam, on the opposite side. I also removed the oil pump.

I plan to remove the block from the trans this week/next. Let the bores soak in the vinegar. remove the crank, and hopefully get those pistons out with relative ease. Fingers crossed, taht I don;t need to do any machine work. I'm hoping the cylinders only need a hone, and new rings. But others will know much more than me. I'll post more pictures as I go through the process.

"I reject your reality, and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
 Posted: Mar 9, 2012 07:30AM
Total posts: 2361
Last post: Sep 19, 2014
Member since:Oct 8, 2011
US

OK, as suspected the Inno 1001 is more less a 998 Cooper engine. That would be my choice but you have an up hill climb. The ridge at the top of the bores is the end of ring travel. I'm not sure we can save the pistons but it's worth a try. I'd suggest you remove the studs carefully clean the deck razor scraper sanding block. Fill the bores to the top with apple cider vingar and duct tape over leave for a week. Dump that out and flip the engine ( I guess you need to remove flywheel and tranny ) carefully remove the rod caps and main caps. Mark them or check that they are marked. By now you should have the front plate off and be able to lift the crank out. be careful not to bang the journals against anything. I'd fill the bores from the bottom and leave several days adding vingar every day or so. Drain that ( I hope you are saving the vingar in a container ) do not hit the rods with anything. Find a length of wooden rod (dowel) and place on the bottom of the piston over the pin boss, tap then out the top. If they don't move get a brass or steel rod and try again. We want to save the rods and block. If we loose the piston we though we might. Once block is bare place in cooler and fill with vingar and seal with duct tape for another week. Anything else thats rusty place in cooler also. Remove and rinse and spray down with WD40. If you want to go on I'll add more when we get there.

I have noticed old timers prefer to refer to me as CTR. I understand fewer key strokes. So I will defer to popular demand.

CTR 

 Posted: Mar 9, 2012 05:29AM
Total posts: 7453
Last post: Sep 16, 2014
Member since:Dec 13, 2001
US
Well, Leon came over last night, and we worked on the engine a bit. I bought the correct sized socket for the crank bolt. Apparently it also fits the cam nut, and the steering wheel nut too.

I tried to turn the engine over by hand but it was a no-go. I figured, maybe we should start removing things, hoping that the more we removed, the less friction would be there so the crank might eventually move... WRONG!

We started by removing the head with rocker gear, and push rods. Her's a picture of each cylinder starting with #1.. #2 has the oil in it. Apparently this unit has "D" top piston's per CTR's comments. #1

#2

#3

#4

So, now the head is removed. What I can see of the cylinder walls, they are smooth, with no scrapes. there was a ridge along the top of each cyilnder, but they were all roughly the same size, so it may be that the tops of the pistons don;t reach the top of the bores?

Here's the head:

We attempted to turn the crank again, with no luck... so we removed the tappet covers to take a look.:

Now the inside of the tappet chest is covered in this coagulateed, oil type stuff, with clumps of it in the corners. You can also see flaky/rusty type stuff on the push rods. it comes off flaky, but will smoosh with your finger tips, and is every oily.

We again attempted to turn the engine by hand.. still no go. We decided maybe the cam is frozen, and not the crank (always hoping the crank and cylinders were free, and something else was giving us grief)

we removed the timing chain and gears:

Again the timing set was covered in this rusty covered oil.

We got the cam to turn by hand, and watched the tappets go up, but not down.. obviously this coaggulated goo was prohibiting them from falling.

Again we tried turning it by hand, with no luck. Now, the flywheel and clutch are still attached (wok removed), but nothing is spinning. I sprayed PB blaster in the cylinders at the end of the night, and left the shop defeated.

Thoughts?

"I reject your reality, and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
 Posted: Mar 8, 2012 09:51AM
Total posts: 9488
Last post: Sep 19, 2014
Member since:May 13, 2001

Synchro = synchromesh

3 synchro =  syhchromesh in only 3 speeds (ie 2,3,4 not 1)

3 synchro is annoying because you can't get first while moving ... unless you double clutch.

BTW the "smaller idler gear" egar refers to the shaft sizes which are slughtly smaller diameter than later ones. There' absolutely nothing wrong with them.

The power of keen observation is often viewed as cynicism by those who don't have it. G.B.S. Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Oscar Wild

 Posted: Mar 8, 2012 08:21AM
Total posts: 7453
Last post: Sep 16, 2014
Member since:Dec 13, 2001
US
Yes, Big Al, I guess I got confused. It was so nice out last night, I spent a number of hours, out in the shop cleaning up. It's been a mess out there. Leon and Dave are coming over tonight for Mini night, and I wanted to be prepared.

So yes... It's a 4 speed, 3 syncro. (what does synchro mean?)

Is that Inno motor that much better than the other? (assuming I can turn it over) Yes, I do beleive it has a 295 head on it with double valve springs. Does anyone have any info on this Inno motor, or how does it compare to a regular old 998? Is it considered a "Cooper" motor? Higher HP, etc?

Pros and cons of which motor to use?

Pros and cons of which gearbox to use?

Malcom, thanks for the size on that bolt. I went and got the right one this morning, before work. Cross your fingers that I can get the motor free'd. Any suggestions if this sucker doesnt budge? Obviously I'll take the head off at that time.

"I reject your reality, and substitute my own." - Adam Savage
 Posted: Mar 8, 2012 05:23AM
Total posts: 2361
Last post: Sep 19, 2014
Member since:Oct 8, 2011
US

Big Al, that's what I'm thinking. The book says it's the last of the three synchro S trannys. The last Inno 998 /1001 I worked on had Cooper D crown pistons, It also had a 295 cyl head. I sure hope this stuff is going to get the proper rebuild it deserves. I understand budgets I wanted to wrap my power unit rebuild in time to make one of the Fla events this spring. When that didn't happen I put my car on the trailer and threw a cover over it. I put the whole mess back in the storage unit. Engine / tranny built and installed. Brakes rebuilt, upgraded and bled. Clutch bled and oil pressure on starter indicated. All that's left is the custom exhaust system and turn the key. I ran out of money so till I can get the exhaust done she can wait.

Steve

 Posted: Mar 8, 2012 04:54AM
Total posts: 13635
Last post: Apr 10, 2014
Member since:Nov 8, 1999
CA

"but now I find out it's a 3 speed, and not 4."

Darren-  Are  you referring to the synchro function ?

BIG AL

new e-mail address-

austinmorris@xplornet.ca

Please update your records-

 Posted: Mar 8, 2012 12:23AM
Total posts: 8172
Last post: Sep 17, 2014
Member since:Oct 27, 2000

Socket size you need is 1-5/16". A 33mm one works fine too, it's real close.

Kevin G

1360 power- Morris 1300 auto block, S crank & rods, Russell Engineering RE282 sprint cam, over 125HP at crank, 86.6HP at the wheels @7000+.

 Posted: Mar 7, 2012 09:43PM
Total posts: 7453
Last post: Sep 16, 2014
Member since:Dec 13, 2001
US
First question. What size is the bolt in the end of the crank on the radiator side?

Now, on to business. I have 2 motors, each on top of a gearbox. I did a bit of research and this is what i found hopefully you guys can fill in the blanks for me.

Engine # 99H718-H7104 (not in our articles, but google shows this is 73-75 ish Inno 998 motor), sitting on top of 22G1832, which is Pre-A+ rod change with possible 3.44 FD, with small idler (small idler=bad?).

other engine:

Engine #8G57ERS46336 (AD, stamped in below). I find that this engine is 998 new from 1969 and exchange for all preA+ up to 1981, sitting on 22A1288, which (i believe) is MKII Cooper 3 syncro B-type gears, with a 22G232 lay gear (not sure what most of that means).

Now, the 8G57 will spin by hand, and I haven't yet gotten the 99h718 to spin, but I'm hoping if I can get the right size socket on the end of the crank, I can get it to turn.

Assuming that both motors, and both gearboxes are in the same shape mechanicly, which do you suggest I use? I was hoping to use the 99H motor, on top of 22A1288, but now I find out it's a 3 speed, and not 4. I was hoping to keep a remote, only because i've heard others mention that the shifting is more positive, and that the remote acts as an extra stabilizer.

Is there anything else I need to know either about the motors, or the gearboxes? Suggestions? Thoughts? Comments? Please.

"I reject your reality, and substitute my own." - Adam Savage