Pertronix ignition issue
Orig. Posting Date | User Name | Edit Date |
Jun 9, 2013 06:47PM | dklawson | |
Jun 9, 2013 12:58PM | TronVader | |
May 29, 2013 01:31PM | TronVader | |
May 28, 2013 03:42PM | dklawson | Edited: May 29, 2013 03:43AM |
May 28, 2013 12:31PM | TronVader | |
May 27, 2013 01:01PM | TronVader | |
May 27, 2013 11:47AM | dklawson | |
May 27, 2013 11:01AM | TronVader | |
May 27, 2013 09:45AM | TronVader | |
May 27, 2013 08:28AM | dklawson | |
May 27, 2013 07:54AM | TronVader | |
May 11, 2013 03:06PM | dklawson | |
May 10, 2013 07:41PM | TronVader | |
May 10, 2013 06:09PM | dklawson | Edited: May 10, 2013 06:11PM |
May 10, 2013 09:09AM | TronVader | Edited: May 10, 2013 01:37PM |
May 10, 2013 04:28AM | dklawson | |
May 9, 2013 08:28PM | mur | |
May 9, 2013 07:21PM | TronVader | |
May 9, 2013 06:53PM | dklawson | |
May 9, 2013 09:44AM | TronVader |
Found 38 Messages
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The points being permanently shorted to ground is consistent with the last bit of information you posted before taking the car to the shop.
Regardless, I'm glad you got this sorted out and thanks for posting what you found.
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You have a fault with the points wiring inside the distributor.
EDIT: My comments are based on the assumption that you REMOVED the white/black wire between the dizzy and coil and replaced it with your test lamp.
The light staying on without blinking means that coil (-) has a permanent, continuous path to ground. There are several ways this can happen but it is odd that you also had no spark with the Pertronix installed.
First... you don't have any other wires on coil(-) right? If anything is there other than the wire to the distributor, take it off and try again. Second, with the ignition switch turned on your test light should be on if the points are closed. Open the points and put a piece of cardboard between them. The light should go out. If it doesn't go out something is creating a path to ground from the moving arm of the points.
Which distributor is this? If it's a 25D, there are insulating washers for mounting the spring on the points. If the washers are not installed correctly you have a permanent path to ground (like what you are seeing). How old and what condition is the condenser? If the condenser has an internal short it will create the symptoms you are experiencing. On the 45D distributor I know of a person who had the lug on the end of the condenser wire oriented so it kept touching ground causing his car's ignition to stop.
Out of curiosity... there isn't any external noise suppressor on the ignition system is there?
You had this setup working on the bench so you have to focus on what might be different with the parts installed. Let us know what if anything is installed differently on the car than it was on the bench.
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For future reference, you can turn the engine over without help from others.  ut the gearbox in neutral and set the handbrake. Attach a jumper wire at the soleonid terminal where you find the white/red wire. Tap/hold the other end of that wire to the battery cable terminal on the solenoid (the one with all the brown wires on it). As long as that jumper wire is held against the battery terminal on the solenoid the engine will turn over on the starter. Of course... remember to turn the ignition key to the run position or you won't be powering the coil.
Dumb question. You did put the rotor on when you refit the dizzy and cap didn't you? It's easy to forget.
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I put a spark plug test light where the main lead comes out of the coil, and have it sitting close to the engine block. The only time it lights, is when I first turn the key to the on position. When I turn the engine over, there is nothing.
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If the engine turns over on the starter (which draws an awful lot of current) the the engine ground cable is not at fault.
OK, points and condenser are back in and you have spark across the points. Sparks at the points mean that current is passing to/through the coil. That also means that the distributor has a good earth connection. Are you looking for spark at the plugs or by disconnecting the coil's main lead from the distributor and holding the end of that lead about 1/8" off the engine while cranking?
What wires are connected to the coil at this time?
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So I've put the points and condensor back in. Still have the same issue... no spark to the distributor. I can create a spark at the points. Does this mean there is a grounding issue with the engine? (Am I correct in guessing that is why the spark gets to the plugs?) I've checked the braided ground strap, it appears fine (like new) and is tight to the body. Is there somewhere rlse I should be looking? All other electrical works fine... I should have been driving this thing weeks ago. So frustrating...
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Are you convinced now that you have a pink wire feeding coil (+)? If so, bypass it as we discussed earlier using the wire from the fuse box to the coil (+) terminal.
What happened to your post with the pictures of the volt meter readings? Did you delete it?
I thought we had gone over coil wiring several times before....
Switched 12V to coil (+) (typically on a 16 AWG white wire).
Wire between coil (-) and the points in the distributor. (typically white/black).
Those are the only wires required for a basic, standard (non-ballast) ignition system.
The Ignitor module is a little different in that the electronics require their own power supply. That's why the Ignitor has the red wire connected to coil (+). The black wire on the Ignitor is analogous to the white/black wire used with points.
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What is the wiring for the coil? White with black tracer goes on the dizzy... power to the positive side of the coil... and what goes on the negative side?
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I did not have the wire hooked to the distributor at this point. I held it to the block and turned the engine over. Still no spark...
Is the power drop when the coil is hooked up to the fuse box expected?
There should be no voltage drop especially since you did not have the wire connected to the distributor.
I am going to give you a link to a PDF I wrote for points ignition systems. I know you have the Ignitor module. Remember that the Ignitor is bascially an electronic switch replacing the mechanical points and condenser so most of the document still applies.
//home.mindspring.com/~purlawson/files/LucasPointsIgnitions.pdf
You said the wire (which wire?) was not connected to the distributor when you turned the engine over on the starter and "still no spark". Are you saying that you held the "new" wire from the fuse box to the engine block? I hope not. That would be a dead short.
While the PDF explains in more detail how the ignition system works, it is important to realize that the points (Ignitor) in the distributor represent a path to ground for current flowing through the coil. All the wires have to be there and hooked up in the proper place. The system works by the closure of the points allowing current to flow through the coil and build up an internal magnetic field. When the points open, current flow stops, the magnetic field collapses, and the collapsling magnetic field creates a high-voltage spike on the high-tension side of the coil. With any of the wires disconnected, current cannot flow so turning the engine over on the starter will not charge/discharge the coil. With any of the wires not connected or connected incorrectly there will be no spark.
Read the PDF then keep the current path in mind as you troubleshoot.
- Power leaves the ignition switch and flows to coil (+)
- Current flows through the coil and out coil (-)
- Current leaving the coil (-) terminal goes to the distributor to the points (Ignitor).
- Current flows through the points to Ground.
- This allows the coil to charge up.
- Open the points (Ignitor) by turning the engine/distributor and the points open.
- When the points open, the current flow stops, the coil's magnetic field collapses, and you get a high-voltage spike out of the coil's high-tension circuit.
You cannot get a spark by holding any wire permanently to ground. That's how a kill switch works.
EDIT: What happened to your last post... the one I quoted part of above?
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Mur's comments are right on point, especially after your in-shop testing showed the distributor and module work on the bench.
Step back from what you saw at the shop and take stock of what is known.
- The Ignitor works when supplied 12V and a ground directly.
- You have unusual voltage measurements with the Ignitor in the car.
- Your wire type and color are "different" than you expected.
Based on that, try the following "re-wire" of the ignition system.
- Use your multimeter at the fuse box. Locate a fuse that is "switched"... one that is off when the key is out and on when the key is in the run position.
- Run a new, white, 16 AWG wire from that fuse directly to coil (+).
- Disconnect and tape over the end of the old white wire that previously was connected to coil (+).
- Connect the Ignitor's RED wire to coil (+). Put no other wires on coil (+). (New white and Ignitor red only).
- Connect the Ignitor's BLACK wire to coil (-). Put no other wires on coil (-). That includes any tachometer sense wires. Put no wires other than the Ignitor black wire on coil (-).
Turn the key to the run position and confirm you have battery voltage on coil (+), then turn the engine over on the starter and look for sparks.
Other variable may apply depending on what you took to the shop. Did you use their spark plug wires and plugs? Did you use their cap and rotor or yours? Keep things like that in mind as you review the sucessful bench test against the setup in your car's engine bay.
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An excerpt from an earlier posting on this thread:
If you don't have proper power going to the coil, you may or may not get it to work.
Mind you, a fellow a year ago claimed the 1-2-3 Mini distributor changed his carb jets so who knows what evil lurks in your engine bay.
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An update: I pulled the distributor out of the car and took it and my coil to the shop. He had no problem turning the distributor by hand and getting it to spark by hooking power to the coil and a ground to the distributor. It had a good spark. I btought it home and stuck it in the car and got nothing. I checked that the distrubitor was grounded and cleaned all the connections. How can I not replicate something someone else can do with my equipment?!
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You asked if there is something else you should be looking at. Until you said the system voltage was 12.6V... I would have said to charge the battery.
You said "there is more power at the coil now". Unfortunately, no. When you removed the magnet ring, that just made sure the Ignitor module was "open" (not conducting). When the Ignitor module was not conducting, there was no path to ground so the voltage you measured on coil (+) was higher. That does not mean there is more power anywhere. Unfortunately all we know now is that the ignitor can turn "on and off". What is odd is that in your previous measurements you kept finding low voltage on coil (+) with the black wire connected to coil (-). That implies two things: 1) that there is a ballast resistor supplying coil (+) and 2) that there is a magnet in front of the Ignitor module when you stop cranking the engine. (Sure... it can happen but it shouldn't always happen). That's why I asked you to remove the magnet ring... just to see if the module would turn off.
Let's focus first on determining if the Ignitor module is turning on and off. You can perform a test to see if the module is switching. Make up a test lamp by soldering wires to a turn signal bulb. Disconnect the black wire from coil (-) and connect one of the test lamp wires to it. Connect the other test lamp wire to the white wire connected to coil (+). Now crank the engine on the starter. If the Ignitor is working, the lamp should turn on and off. If it doesn't, the module is not working for one reason or another.
Are there any other wires connected to the coil? So far we have discussed a white (or pink) wire on coil (+) and the red & black wires from the Ignitor. Are there any others?
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Found 38 Messages