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 Posted: May 29, 2015 04:20AM
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Not just rubber cones, but old rubber cones. The pre-64 are made of a harder rubber. They have a different shape to the sporty cones with their different shape lands. Rather than getting an exponential movement vs resistance relationship, you get a more linear one, but the initail resistance is higher. It's stiffer without being "harsh". 

I did a comparison between some pre 64 cones, some NOS pre 64 cones and some new later cones. I personally preferred the worn in (but not ruined) pre 64. 

I hated hydro and I'm sure I'd dislike springs. 

With rear anti roll bar, I think it was the ultimate very fast road/track setup (running 165 road tyres)

Red one sold years ago. Blue one "tuned" a bit. 

 Posted: May 27, 2015 05:09AM
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US

I've been riding on delta LSS springs (long stroke springs).  I have found them to be great in a daily driver. The roads are very rough on LI, NY and they make it a pleasure to drive the mini. I also think pairing the proper shock has alot to do with the ride. I was using century shocks in front and konis in the rear. Because of a unfortunate accident, I have to bring out another mini which, I'm going to put the blue springs and pair it with red ryders. I highly recommend the LSS for comfort.

 Posted: May 26, 2015 07:08AM
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US

This is some great info on a topic that has way too little true info on.

I was recently going back and worth on this very topic for my own car. I talked with Keith Calver in length about his option on springs. Seems to be very much on the same page as you Alex. The tine springs, with there non-progressive design just cant perform as well. He mentioned a couple sets that he has tried out of Japan that were extremely well made (as well as extremely expensive) that actually match the characteristis of rubber. The price and trying to obtain them made them not a very great option though.

I ended up going with the C-STR687 cones. I am very excited to see how they feel. My cones, especially the fronts, were toast. I will not be able to give good comparision obviously.

 Posted: May 26, 2015 12:39AM
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GB

Rubber get stronger as it compresses - as you squish a cone the spring rate gets astronomically high.
Coil springs just can't do that, the cross section of the coil determines the spring rate.  Taper winding allows for a variation in spring rate to introduce an element of rising rate,  but there simply isn't the length available to mimic the rubber cone, even if it were possible.

The ride quality in Betty is superb - drove her to Italy and back in comfort (though there was some arch touching on the Belgian cobbled motorways) but she is a bit iffy on the limit when the roll causes the bump stops to act as the springing medium, and the load carrying ability is miniscule.

 Posted: May 25, 2015 06:09AM
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US
That makes sense. I saw how short the race springs were on the one link I posted and wondered how bad of a ride that must be. Any clues why they can't match a stock cone length and have comparable rates?

 Posted: May 25, 2015 05:36AM
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GB

Spring length and stroke is the problem.  Mini springs are so short they just can't be wound progressively with any success.

I'm about at the point that the red springs will be coming off Betty.  I'm fed up with having to raise the rear ride height and not be able to carry much in the boot.

 Posted: May 24, 2015 11:09AM
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I guess to me I don't understand why there can't be a progressive rate spring that matches the rates of a cone. You'd get the same ride but it would never sag or or begin to ride differently as time goes on.

 Posted: May 24, 2015 09:42AM
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US

Regarding the "poly" issue I've not used poly cones; however, I do continue to us "poly" bushings elsewhere, BUT only the Ward Barbour ones as found on this site. Search under PARTS for WB to see his products.

 Posted: May 24, 2015 09:37AM
 Edited:  Jun 1, 2015 07:49PM
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US

Random thoughts from someone who has installed and driven all types of cones and springs on many cars over many years.

Many of those who rave about springs have just installed them in a car that had ancient cones. Not a good comparison.

Green springs. Use only on a car that is trailered from one race track to another and make sure the suspension is set up by someone who knows how to make springs work.

Blue springs. Might as well sell the Mini and buy an old Cadillac. No comparison to hydrolastic (the best Mini suspension ever). And as an addition to Alex's observation, do not drive a blue-springed car at night with people (or other weight) in the back. Your headlights will be blinding on-coming car drivers.

Don't forget to include in the cost of a set of springs, the cost of spring-type upper arm rebound buffers, rear bump stops, and, if you drive hard and fast, front and rear anti-roll bars. Oh, and something to keep the rear springs from falling out of place whenever you jack up the rear end.

Springs themselves are easier to install than cones, but they need more parts installed.

If new cones are installed and they are the standard type (i.e., way softer than in the "good ol' days"), add in the cost of "hi/lo" suspension. You will be resetting the ride height more than once.

 Posted: May 24, 2015 08:39AM
 Edited:  May 24, 2015 08:40AM
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US
 Posted: May 24, 2015 08:16AM
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US
Apparently springs are progressive rate too. I can't find a range on them like the cones. Here's a link with some interesting comparisons.

//www.minitastic.co.uk/home1.htm

 Posted: May 24, 2015 07:48AM
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US
Direct from this site regarding cone rates. Now if I could find something on the springs.

Measured at the wheel, the spring rates at the static load position are 118 lb/in at the front and 98 lb/in at the rear. With three passengers and 50 lb of luggage, the loads per wheel at the same position are respectively 468 lb and 355 lb. These loads rise to 1,050 lb and 670 lb at full bump and fall to 240 lb and 100 lb when the rebound check is in operation.

 Posted: May 24, 2015 07:34AM
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US

After doing a whole lot of reading today on various supplier's sites, I'm wondering if the negative in Alex's original comment about springs being lineal was an issue back then, but the springs have improved. I keep reading the advertizing about them being progressive now, and see varying diameters towards one end.

 

 Posted: May 24, 2015 07:13AM
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CA
Image Gallery

Good to pull this back up...I have never been tempted to go to coil springs, though I confess to being sadly disappointed with the new rubber cones that collapsed almost immediately with the Van loaded for Mid-Ohio last June.

We had to lengthen the rear trumpets on day 2 and again in White River, Ontario on day 5....then gave everything we didn't need for the 3,000 mile trip from Milwaukee to home to a club member with his Subaru.

On getting home I replaced the new cones with an Alex Moulton Smootha-Ride cone set, checked the Koni Sport shocks and set them at 1.5 up front, standard KYBs at rear.  Though no long trips with a load since, I've been happy so far.

Have a little more clearance between tyre & City flairs with the Yokie 12s (wider tyre can be the issue up front) than I needed with the 10" Yokies on the sedan.

 Posted: May 24, 2015 07:08AM
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I've been torn on my other street/track non mini car whether to keep my progressive rate springs or stick on my linear springs. Benefits to both. However reading this thread again I'd think linear springs would be the way to go since they appear to give a cush ride on the road and I've always been under the impression a linear rate is better for the track as it's more predictable. You don't want too soft as you'll get excessive body roll but too stiff and the car will skate. Does anyone have actually spring rates for these springs available and an idea what range of rate is to be expected from a standard cone?

 Posted: May 24, 2015 05:08AM
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US

Thanks Alex for your detailed reply. Yes, been a few years. Maybe reviving the thread will add more feedback. I hadn't thought about the linear action of the springs vs the variable cones.

I like your detail about different conditions. I will never autocross my pickup (no such activity around here), nor do I expect to use it for long trips, as I'll run out of pavement in almost all directions after a few miles, and our pavement isn't great. Much is cobblestone and pavers. Some is poorly poured concrete. My load will probably vary from mostly me driving alone, to occasionally picking someone up at the airport with their luggage.

I made the mistake of putting stiffer than stock shocks on my Corvair, and the ride was bumpy. Change over to original equivalent and it improved significantly.

I haven't driven my pickup yet. 10" wheels, Faulken tires. I put the adjusta rides on it. Rear cones are 40 years old, fronts are 23 years old. All shocks are new, standard, from Mini Sport.

So when I got to talking with a friend last night about the spring kits, we both got interested. Not the shock-over, as advertised here, but looking at the Mini-Spare kits.

You commented about the springs being made in USA. Which ones? If we by them we will be shipping to Bolivia.

Appreciate what you wrote and hope to hear more updates.

 Posted: Nov 7, 2013 07:33PM
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Poly can be good.  However, its very nature means its a good as the person who mixed it and the formula they used. 

There's at least one guy in Oz who knows what he's doing - so much so that poly bushes Down here are generically known by his name (whoever made them).

Cheers, Ian

 

 Posted: Nov 7, 2013 12:36PM
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I agree as well.  There are a lot of poly bits and pieces out there that are probably marketed more than they are engineered, or tested.  Boy racer demand for bling at rock bottom pricing certainly increases the risk for crap.  Sounds like the mini world isn't immune.  

However, the Japanese have a saying, okyakusamawa kamisama 'the customer is God.'  During the purchase process I mentioned my local race track.  The next day I received an analysis of the track along with some tactical questions about the what line I typically choose to take through the chicane.  That answer along with slew of others about my suspension setup and tires /wheel combo were factored in to determine which poly compound to put on what end of the car.  I wouldn't be too quick to write off all poly, especially if it's coming out of Mini dedicated Japanese boutiques.  Club Mini races on and wins with their polyurethane cones.  

I'll let you guys know how these hold up.  So far I'm still waiting for them to "settle" like regular cones, but they haven't budged in three weeks of romping around.

 

 

 

 Posted: Nov 6, 2013 05:40AM
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I agree. Poly products made from the correct material for other applications seem decent but it seems the poly made for the Mini specific items are crap and just crumble under pressure.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: Nov 6, 2013 01:14AM
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GB

I am extremely wary of poly cones due to the bad experiences I've had with ALL other poly products.

Maybe I've just been unlucky, but all of the stuff I've used or fitted to other peoples cars have failed, with the failure mode being sudden.
Poly engine steadies are so useless that I will no longer be stocking them - I've gone back to rubber.

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