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 Posted: Oct 23, 2014 09:50AM
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I have two Schnoodles that take turns!  When I bring both they get rambunctious and run in barking!  One comes in politely and goes to sleep!

Thanks Todd!  Yes a new unit is on it's way!  You'll have it tomorrow.  I'll email you a FedEx label for the old one...

 Posted: Oct 23, 2014 09:03AM
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 Shout out to Jemal at Mania who saw this thread and:

1. Called me just to walk me through troubleshooting.

2. Sent me out a new unit the next morning without my even asking.

Where in the world can you get support like that?

 Posted: Oct 23, 2014 07:51AM
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Take all the dogs!

 

 Posted: Oct 23, 2014 06:42AM
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Such a good example of how this forum, despite it's quirks, is such a great tool for the Mini Community. A successful diagnoses, and we've all learned something!

I made one of these fit my Lotus twin cam engine to protect the flywheel ring gear from the destruvtive Lucas unit. I'll have to examin it.

I'll look at this one too, when Todd sends it back. A new one should be on it's way when I get thru my gruelling one mile commute.  Let's see, can the Mini go or might it rain?   And which dog's turn is it....

 Posted: Oct 23, 2014 06:08AM
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Makes sense...weak spring. You may want to keep a spare "Denso solenoid repair kit" googlize it for when warranty expires.$20 or so. Looks like a very common solenoid.

Had similar problem on Dodge ram diesel several years ago but about 100,000 miles. Dealer needed $600 for new starter...aftermarket was $275. Searched again and found contact was eroded away...$30 kit later and all was good.

Glad to see you found the problem.

 Posted: Oct 22, 2014 07:53PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsumini

I'm guessing poor contact at the points with arrows in the pic. Looks like only three places of contact. Plunger may be lifting the disk so it doesn't contact on this side.

Tsumini you're exactly right and the cause is a weak plunger spring.  I stretched it out about a half inch and it put enough pressure on the plunger to make a complete connection in the areas you show.  It works well enough to start the car but I am still within ND's 1-year warranty and with Mania's usual excellent help I can get a replacement.  It now makes a little noise while disengaging so it's time for a new one.

In these pictures I've laid out the plunger, where the spring you see helps push it down against the contacts when it is engaged.  The other spring pushing in the pinion counteracts it and is heavier, so that appears to be why it's there.

I had a few non-crank episodes like this before with this starter but they were very infrequent and seemed to happen only when things were a little hot.  This helps reinforce the spring as the smoking gun.  I did everything else on this solenoid - cleaned and sanded contacts, verified continuity - and basically there was not enough spring pressure on the plunger.

 Posted: Oct 22, 2014 06:45PM
 Edited:  Oct 22, 2014 07:47PM
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I'm guessing poor contact at the points with arrows in the pic. Looks like only three places of contact. Plunger may be lifting the disk so it doesn't contact on this side.

Edit: The other contact may be eroded so it may have bad contact. Both must have good contact. clicking only means solenoid is translating but does not necessarily mean making contact on both sides.

 Posted: Oct 22, 2014 04:29PM
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I mean using the key, with the starter hooked up with the real leads, just sitting on the bumper instead of installed.

 Posted: Oct 22, 2014 04:25PM
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"After reassembly the motor fired once but then back to click click after that."  

Do you mean with the key installed on the engine, or testing directly off a battery?  If the starter/solenoid works directly off a battery (As in jumper cables, red directly to big post, black to metal housing mounting ears, then "hotwire" from RED post to the little "start" spade using a screwdriver or other sacrificial metal rod...protect the terminal from arcing by slipping a female spade over it and 'arc' to that)... anyway, if it woks off a battery, then the car's wiring has the issue!

I'll expect a report when I call you from home in a bit!

 Posted: Oct 22, 2014 03:59PM
 Edited:  Oct 22, 2014 04:20PM
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In head-scratching mode here.  

  1. Solenoid is working mechanically, but intermittent electrically.
  2. Motor works when jumpered.
  3. Getting 12.65V into the trigger in the key ignition start position.
  4. The lead from the solenoid to the motor is solid.

Bad pitting and carbon on the contact surfaces despite being in a well-sealed enclosure and only six months old.  Hit it with 600 grit.

After reassembly the motor fired once, but then went back to click-click after that.  It's powerful click, that plunger is hitting those contacts.

In the photos note the small copper L-shaped device held by a screw in the top left of the inside of the chamber.  That is a brush of some kind that leads to an external screw that has nothing hooked up to it.  It was bent in a way to possibly interfere with the plunger's motion and contact with the faces.  The plunger is pictured also.

 Posted: Oct 22, 2014 03:08PM
jeg
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Don't stress too much about it, just work systematically, one component at a time and refer to the wiring diagram found in Haynes for color codes and placement.  Even if you've changed or added to the electrical system, it's still relevant as to where from the fuse-box the wiring connects to the switch.  If you don't have one, I can probably E-mail one to you.  You know that the starter is good, you know that the solenoid is good, you know that the wires are intact (or at least easy enough to continuity check), you know that the switch is good. 

It's going to be something simple; the little one will be riding shotgun in no time.

The peasants are revolting...          

"Gone with the Wind" - a brief yet moving vignette concerning lactose intolerance

 Posted: Oct 22, 2014 02:37PM
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OK with the key in the start position the motor is getting a whopping 0.64V from the ND solenoid.  12.72 is going in to the solenoid terminal.  I don't have the stock solenoid in this car.

I ran an alternate ground professionally made from excess Monster Cable and it didn't matter.  Clicks loudly but the motor doesn't catch.  Checking the interwebs the NipponDenso starter only uses the engine grounding, and I even located the strap from the starter top attach bolt.  I did have plenty of dielectric grease there and perhaps should switch to conductive instead, but that's still not the problem.

These ND starters are not supposed to do this and the chances are it's my fault somewhere - especially in the electrical department.  But off comes the solenoid cover now and I will report back.

 Posted: Oct 22, 2014 01:54PM
 Edited:  Oct 22, 2014 02:00PM
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Hi jeg - Running a relay for each of the lights.  And I'm going back through that whole system now.

Maybe I did one of the plugs on the back of the ignition tumbler wrong, I'm looking at that too.  However it worked all through this last weekend going up to see Jemal's beautiful baby.  Unbelieveable little guy, and obviously a sad and depressed 2 month-old as you can see.

The only thing that has changed in this whole setup is the new ignition switch from last Friday.  

Right now I am checking the grounding of the ND starter, I have a really good cable on there but then you never know.  I have it sitting on the bumper, hooking up an alternate ground to check.

Whoever put in my oil cooler did not bend down the inner grille lip sheetmetal enough - the lip that the oil cooler sits down on.  So over the centuries some grille sheetmetal was working against the aluminum underside of the cooler..nice.

Xavy Cooper KetatXavy Cooper KetatXavy Cooper Ketat

 Posted: Oct 22, 2014 01:29PM
jeg
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I think Jemal is onto something. 

Are you running a relay with the driving lights? 

The peasants are revolting...          

"Gone with the Wind" - a brief yet moving vignette concerning lactose intolerance

 Posted: Oct 22, 2014 12:22PM
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The trigger lead to the solenoid is giving 12.69, and the battery cable terminates on the starter post like the stock solenoid. On the Densos the bat lead from the solenoid to the motor is stuk down behind it so I'll dig the starter out and get it to turn on the garage floor, that worked every time I would fix the old Lucas starter every month.

 Posted: Oct 22, 2014 11:22AM
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Solenoid can click with an iffy connection to the starter, or battery, or engine ground, but can't carry enough current to turn motor.  Have a look at the wires behind the switch too!  I remember your driving light fuse issue last week.... maybe a related electrical issue, such as if those lights were drawing thru the ignition switch too!

So now you have a continuous cable from Bat + to starter body, right?  That takes a different "start" wire to the terminal on the starter than if the original solenoid is retained.  That's where I worry about too much current going thru the switch, or too small a wire between the switch and bat or between the switch and 'START" terminal on the starter.....  SOMETHING is up!  I remember that melted fuse that still wasn't blown!

 Posted: Oct 22, 2014 08:47AM
 Edited:  Oct 22, 2014 08:48AM
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fitkz1tj, yeah checking all the grounds now thanks.

Jemal, I took out the orginal solenoid for that new hair-curling coil.  It was all working fine with the previous crap switch, yet I did get a few days out of this new switch.  

But then if the solenoid is clicking loudly there is nothng wrong with the new switch, right...?...or maybe possibly?

I think this will all be solved by ignoring your advice and getting another new distributor.  Then, I will use a phone charger to jump the whole thing: 

//www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2803433/Why-never-try-charge-electric-car-mobile-charger-Chinese-showroom-set-fire-worker-tried-restart-dead-battery.html

Car fire

 Posted: Oct 22, 2014 08:08AM
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Is there a chance that too much current is going thru the wires at the switch?  There are a couple of ways to hook up the ND starters.... do you still have the original remote solenoid in the circuit?

 Posted: Oct 21, 2014 10:05PM
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So, you have decent voltage and a new ignition switch.  The solenoid is working because you are getting voltage at the starter terminals.  I would check/replace/clean the engine ground strap. 

Nothing is so bad that you can't make it worse by doing something rash or going berserk.

 Posted: Oct 21, 2014 07:38PM
 Edited:  Oct 23, 2014 09:01AM
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Edit - 

Glad I got this NipponDenso starter at Mania because warranty support and service are so great.  

In fact, just from seeing this thread they shipped me a new unit the next morning.   Thanks Mania!

There is a solenoid spring tension issue I tracked down and have been contacted by one other member who had the exact same problem with this otherwise bombproof starter.  Details several posts down.

Nice new lucas Mk 1 ignition switch.  It did start nicely over its first inaugural weekend.  (There, I spelled inaugural right without looking).

Now I just get a nice strong solenoid click on the new Denso starter and no cranky cranky.

13.95V at the starter terminals.  When the old ignition switch did this I would clean the contact faces and get another few months out of it.  I think I need to ask Doug Lawson to move in for a few months.

I am due for an alternator so I'll let the trickle charger sit overnight in case the voltage is just under some kind of threshold that the starter prefers.