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 Posted: Jan 23, 2015 10:01PM
 Edited:  Jan 23, 2015 10:15PM
jeg
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Ok - I had just placed a dpdt switch in a 'shopping cart' along with some screw-on tab connectors; it sounds like a dpst is also in order. 

Are you able to 'splain how this'll integrate into where we've come so far?  (another sketch perhaps?)

 

Of course, I could just leave the rear fog lamp circuit as it is (refer to diagram from yesterday) and pirate the warning lamp from the electric fan.

The peasants are revolting...          

"Gone with the Wind" - a brief yet moving vignette concerning lactose intolerance

 Posted: Jan 23, 2015 09:24PM
mur
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Yeah, that was completely wrong of me. The rear fog needs a more complex switch, a dual pole single throw. Operating the warning lamp needs its own unique switch, one not connected to the rear fog lamp itself. amateur day!

 Posted: Jan 23, 2015 09:13PM
mur
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I like switched earths because they eliminate a person having to run power to the switch first. Then in this case they also make the relay smart: it only triggers ON if the headlamps low beams are on, and the switch is switched to on.

I made a huge mistake though. In the above diagram, if the front fog lamps are turned on, then the rear fog lamp will get power. 

Trying to have one warning lamp indicate two possible appliances being turned on is more difficult than I thought.

Sorry guys.

 

 Posted: Jan 23, 2015 08:42PM
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Too complex for me ... although maybe the physical layout is simpler than the logic diagram would suggest.  

I still preferr my solution of a single switched line from the high beam dipswitch terminal to the drivers light relay switch terminal.  There's no need for an indicator (unless you're worried about driving around with the headlights on high beam and spot lights during the day).

For the fogs (noting the new requirements for separate front/rear control) I would use a Mini headlight switch.  Connect the parking light terminal to the rear fog (relay or not to choice) ..and the headlight terminal to the front fog relay.   This will ensure that the rear lamp willl always be lit when the fronts are lit but not VV....

Depending on whether or not you want separate front and rear fog telltales (you have a spare if you don't use the driving light indicator) run wires to the appropriate indicator lamps.....

I wonder if mur could provide some advice as to the advantages of switched earths?????

Cheers, Ian

 

 Posted: Jan 23, 2015 07:13PM
mur
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Looks good to me.

 Posted: Jan 23, 2015 06:39PM
 Edited:  Jan 23, 2015 06:52PM
jeg
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Alrighty then - Like yourself, I haven't done this much coloring since kindergarten!

I think I've got the jist of your sketch -

If I've got it right, using the dpdt switch will allow the rear fog lamp to be operated by the separate spst switch and the warning lamp will illuminate by either (both) the front (dpdt) or rear (spst) fog lamp switches when either the rear fog or the front fog lamps are turned on. 

In the event of both front and rear fog lamps are turned on at the same time, the small warning lamp will still be illuminated.

Did I miss anything?

The peasants are revolting...          

"Gone with the Wind" - a brief yet moving vignette concerning lactose intolerance

 Posted: Jan 23, 2015 03:32PM
 Edited:  Jan 23, 2015 03:50PM
jeg
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Thanks mur, I'm going to try to modify the drawing that I've been working on and we'll see if I've got it right.  I hope that others enjoy this as much as I do -

Edit:  The local RS components has the dpdt switch (with screw terminals) in stock, so I'll see about ordering one.

The peasants are revolting...          

"Gone with the Wind" - a brief yet moving vignette concerning lactose intolerance

 Posted: Jan 23, 2015 10:33AM
mur
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With the above switch, you can use +12V to power the driving lights warning lamp so you only need a ground for those in your dash box. I did not add that circuit into my diagram because I failed art in elementary school, and it was bad enough already.

 Posted: Jan 23, 2015 10:30AM
mur
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This is totally in your ability, and as threads on the board go this one hasn't been poisoned. Enjoy a horrible hand drawn diagram.

 Posted: Jan 23, 2015 07:48AM
 Edited:  Jan 23, 2015 07:50AM
jeg
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Mur, do you really think that's within my abilities? 

I found a local source for more switches albeit with screw terminals that I can mount blades to, and their cheaper than Holden's in the UK.  I could have them here within 2 days...  But, I'm not sure how I'd go about re-configuring the diagram to accomodate this.  It might be time for more reading on the Interweb to learn how a dpdt switch functions... 

I think that I should probably leave it as is for the time being; don't know if the gallery wants to sit through more of my thinking. 

Unless you'd like to E-mail to me -

The peasants are revolting...          

"Gone with the Wind" - a brief yet moving vignette concerning lactose intolerance

 Posted: Jan 23, 2015 07:23AM
mur
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If you get a dual pole dual throw switch, then one side of the switch can do the switching for the warning lamps, and you can switch either + or - to your warning lamps and they will be on a different circuit than the relay trigger. What this means is that you can use one fog warning lamp for both front and rear fog lamp warnings independent of one another.

 Posted: Jan 23, 2015 04:18AM
jeg
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Image Gallery

It does get confusing, doesn't it!

"Getting confused again....  Rear warning light is being fed 12V from source (see bottom left corner of diagram AND from rear spot (fed from "12V accessory relay") ????

Leave the old rear fog as is - ie does not interact with new ground based switch....  (BTW ...what is contact 85 on the fog relay???)  

AFAICS once the "12V accessory relay" switches on, your rear fogs will come on irrespective as to where the "single (dual pole) switch" is ???????

Cheers, Ian"

"That other relay powers a set of four fuses for non original items, and the rearward fog lamp was one item among them."  Correct, it powers a pair of fuses - the 2nd fusebox has 2 relays, one ignition key switched and one ignition key unswitched, each serving 2 fuses. Overkill perhaps... 

 

I believed, Ian, that the latest drawing would allow the fog warning lamp to illuminate either by establishing the switched-ground connection when the Fog relay is activated by a position of the 3-terminal switch (fog relay pin 85), where as when the Fog relay is 'inactive/dormant', the warning lamp could also illuminate when the 2-terminal (on-off) rear switch is switched by connecting the current coming from the 'accessory' relay at the 2nd fuse box. 

I think, now, that this idea is flawed because there's no direct ground connection to the warning lamp once the Fog relay is switched off by breaking the ground connection.  Adding a ground connection to the warning lamp would allow it to be activated by the rear fog switch, but also provide a ground connection to the Fog relay.

I thinking this is now impossible because if the spdt is in the middle position, there's no ground effective ground in the 'Fog' circuit.  Establishing permanent ground to the warning lamp also provides a ground direct path to Fog relay pin 85.  So, I think a 2nd warning lamp is the answer, and I can pirate the one that's currently used by the fan.

The peasants are revolting...          

"Gone with the Wind" - a brief yet moving vignette concerning lactose intolerance

 Posted: Jan 22, 2015 10:31PM
mur
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Ian-I think I have it figured. That other relay powers a set of four fuses for non original items, and the rearward fog lamp was one item among them. It has little draw so can be powered by a switch and the switch can also power the re purposed fan warning lamp. 

 Posted: Jan 22, 2015 10:02PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeg

Kinda figured that it goes like that - been working on a new drawing where I leave the rear fog as I had it on the single switch and use the spdt for the front lamps as we'd designed. 

The stumbling block that I come up with, though, is the warning lamp.  How to connect it to both switches when the spdt switch is 'ground' active and the 'old' rear fog lamp is wired 'conventionally' with + coming to the switch and back to the lamp.  The relay used is an general-accessory relay that's serving the added 2nd fuse box (the 2nd fuse box has a pair of relays to accomodate accessories; fuel pump, electric fan, radio, rear fog lamp)...

 

Edit:  I don't know if this will work, I've added the separate rear fog lamp switch and hopefully can share the connections with the dashboard warning lamp.  What do you think?

Getting confused again....  Rear warning light is being fed 12V from source (see bottom left corner of diagram AND from rear spot (fed from "12V accessory relay") ????

Leave the old rear fog as is - ie does not interact with new ground based switch....  (BTW ...what is contact 85 on the fog relay???)  

AFAICS once the "12V accessory relay" switches on, your rear fogs will come on irrespective as to where the "single (dual pole) switch" is ???????

Cheers, Ian

 Posted: Jan 22, 2015 09:33PM
mur
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You certainly can run that fog lamp via a switch without a relay. It is only used occasionally and you can use your existing structure to accomplish that.

 Posted: Jan 22, 2015 08:06PM
 Edited:  Jan 22, 2015 08:16PM
jeg
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The rear fog lamp has a 23W halogen bulb, so it draws 2Amps, right?  So, when I installed the 2nd fuse box, I put 2 relays on the fuse box - 2 fuses 'switched' on the ignition accessory circuit (electric fan, fuel pump, radio etc.) and 2 fuses 'unswitched' for eventual fitting of a cigar lighter or other doo-dad that can be mistakenly left on and drain the battery.  I didn't think it necessary at the time, but could give the rear fog it's own relay, as I've got extra sockets and a couple of relays en route. 

The attached image is the unit which will contains the switches, but still need to add 1 switch for the rear fog; using the existing spdt switch for the front lamps.  I don't think it has space for another warning lamp.  There might be space enough above the vacuum gauge, in the upper left corner. 

Ideal would be connecting both front fogs and rear fog to the same warning lamp, but I don't know if it's possible.  It'd be front fogs on, warning light on; rear fog on, warning light on; both switches on, only 1 warning light on.

Edit:  Brilliant idea!  Another ABBA moment - Aha!  The electric fan doesn't really need an indicator lamp, with the engine at idle, I can hear it when it's operating.  Plus, it's an orange lamp!  I can move it and use that lamp if necessary.

 

The peasants are revolting...          

"Gone with the Wind" - a brief yet moving vignette concerning lactose intolerance

 Posted: Jan 22, 2015 07:36PM
mur
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What does the rear fog lamp draw, and why wouldn't you give it its own warning lamp and its own switch and its own relay. Perhaps you could place two bulbs in the warning light fixture.

 Posted: Jan 22, 2015 06:45PM
 Edited:  Jan 22, 2015 07:30PM
jeg
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Kinda figured that it goes like that - been working on a new drawing where I leave the rear fog as I had it on the single switch and use the spdt for the front lamps as we'd designed. 

The stumbling block that I come up with, though, is the warning lamp.  How to connect it to both switches when the spdt switch is 'ground' active and the 'old' rear fog lamp is wired 'conventionally' with + coming to the switch and back to the lamp.  The relay used is an general-accessory relay that's serving the added 2nd fuse box (the 2nd fuse box has a pair of relays to accomodate accessories; fuel pump, electric fan, radio, rear fog lamp)...

 

Edit:  I don't know if this will work, I've added the separate rear fog lamp switch and hopefully can share the connections with the dashboard warning lamp.  What do you think?

The peasants are revolting...          

"Gone with the Wind" - a brief yet moving vignette concerning lactose intolerance

 Posted: Jan 22, 2015 06:15PM
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That was an earlier suggestion..... leave the rear fog as is.

Run the front fog off the second terminal of the multiposition switch discussed earlier - or just run two auxiliary light switches...

Use the normal light switch as a feed if you want a setup where the fogs can only come on with headlights.  Or for the simple setup just use a convenient power source and rely on the warning light to ensure you have lightson/off when legally rquired...

Cheers, Ian

 Posted: Jan 22, 2015 06:08PM
mur
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First of all, I love that your country has inspections and rules and they are expected to be followed.

Next, the possibilities get busy. Is the rearward fog lamp only allowed in serious weather and only when the fronts are on? Maybe have a single switch for the rearward fog lamp and the spdt for the forward lamps, or maybe a mini headlamps toggle from MK I or II to have forward fogs at the park lamps position and then forward and rear fog at the headlights position. 

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