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 Posted: Mar 23, 2015 11:34AM
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US

Thanks Jedd,

I think that is the next course. Pull the head. Calver is sending me new seals regardless. Talked to supplier and they "sort of" agreed that the latest batch of seals they have seen are not the "same" as they used to be. The tension springs are not as good and the hole may just be too larger. WONDERFUL!!!

Still, with the head off, I will check the bores for hone marks and glazing. If I see anything out of the ordinary, its going to a shop to examine and see what I should I do. Rehone and new rings, bore out and new piston/rings, whatever. The last machinist that did the work vanished like a fart in the wind so I am not sure how much I trust his work. Found a new guy that comes insanely recommended.

 Posted: Mar 23, 2015 11:27AM
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Right, i assumed I wasnt at TDC on the cylinders when they were being moved. I readjusted to TDC and retested. That is what took me some time. I mean, I can try and stick my dial gauge through the plug hole and get a reading next time. Is it ok to go past TDC and/or rock it a bit to and from to get it perfect? I have heard one say no way. it messes up the rings seating. Another said that you need to do it that to get the rings to seat correctly. God bless the interwebs and all their many answers:-)

With each test I did I would do exactly what is needed. I listened to the inlet with my injection throttle open, ran around to the exhaust exit to listen to the exhaust. I carried a fuel line to stick into my ear to me sure. As stated, I only heard air coming from the crankcase...which is good as this head is almost new.

When I start the car cold, it does smoke but not a lot. Start and leave at idle and I dont think I see any but I'll check that. Give it a little rev and you do see some smoke but not all the time. Its cold here so from in the car sometimes it just could be from that. Usually working by myself.

 Posted: Mar 23, 2015 11:24AM
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Your smoke screen - and "blow By " hearing in the craank case are indicative of not well sealing piston rings... Head comes off- make sure there is still clear hone hash marks in the cyl - In that mileage the hone hatching should still be seen... If its glazed up - I would be sceptical of piston ring sealing- or mabye even ring gap...

 

If the head comes off- Inspect the valve seals - Easy to replace- but also check the valve seal height-- ( recient thread showed valve seals got smushed unnder the valve cap because the valves were either too short- or the valve guide was too tall ( i honestly dont remember the thread) but that crash ruined the seals - and the person had to re evaluate his setup to ensure the valves wont crash futher.

 Posted: Mar 23, 2015 10:38AM
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If you are not getting valve guide smoke on start up your valve guide seals should be ok.

It is normal for the air pressure to want to push the piston down. You can have decent compression figures with bad oil control rings. The test needs to be done with the piston at TDC for best results.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: Mar 23, 2015 10:10AM
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CA
A Cylinder "Leak down " tester is pretty straight forward. The cylinder being tested MUST be on TDC on compression stroke , both valves fully closed.Connect up your air supply , mine uses 100PSI . If the piston is pushed down , you were not 100% on TDC. With the piston at TDC , and the air supply connected, pull the valve cover cap off and put your ear to it . If you hear air , you have air pressure leaking past the rings into the crank case.Compression rings not sealing, You can also check any breathers you have on the motor for the same....Next , check the back side , Inlet side of the carb . Hear any air ?? if so , the inlet valve isn't sealing . Next , go to the tailpipe on the exhaust and listen again,any air heard there will indicate an exhaust valve not sealing. The leak down test will only indicate if the compression rings are leaking not the oil control rings . So ......if you have lots of leak down past the rings , out she comes !

Mousy

 
 
 Posted: Mar 23, 2015 08:49AM
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Thanks. My leak down tester is a Moroso 89600 - Moroso Compression Tester. Borrowered from a friend and was never used before. It is a single gauge config. I set me compressor output to 90psi and then zeroed out the gauge on the leakdown. The gauge itself say min of 80 and a max of 100 so I went with 100psi

As I posted, it took me a few tries as I would set it all up and then plug the air in and get 100% leakage. Would recheck and see that the piston was not at TDC. Turns out the hit of 90psi was actually compressing the piston back down the cylinder. I thought that very odd.

Where is the best place to listen for air in the crankcase? I used the flywheel and timing chain cover breathers. Would the dipstick hole have been better? Also, I did not put any drops of oil in before each test as I did have the motor warm and running no more then an hour or so before. Assume there should be oil still present, correct?


The valve seal thing seems to easy. Calver reported that he has heard this from a couple other customers lately which is what prompted him to ask the manufacture for details. One of the main Mini dealers. I am currently having a similar problem with my timing chain. I bought a very nice veneer timing setup from Swiftune, only to have the chain stretch in just 1200 miles. I had to buy a replacement from them (yes, I had to pay) and the same seems to have happened. What is going on with these products!! It doesnt pay to cost cut. Rest assured that my next chain will be a IWIS.

 Posted: Mar 23, 2015 08:11AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malsal

Before you tear into anything why don't you put air pressure to each cylinder (with both valves closed) you will see where the leakage if any is, if it leaks through the oil cap the rings are suspect.

His leak down test is the same thing (with a gauge) and he did report hearing air leaking into the block.

66coop, is your leak down tester homemade or purchased?  One gauge or two?  Why 90 PSI and not 100?  

Doug L.
 Posted: Mar 23, 2015 07:39AM
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Before you tear into anything why don't you put air pressure to each cylinder (with both valves closed) you will see where the leakage if any is, if it leaks through the oil cap the rings are suspect.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: Mar 23, 2015 07:19AM
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Update:

I actually just heard back from Calver. He thinks it might be valve seals. Seems the supplier or them has changed to a worse quality and he has had a few customers having issues with them failing. I told him about the massive smoke screen I left over the summer, blasting down hill in 3rd for a decent bit and then hitting the throttle. Sounds like valve seals or guides. Given that the head is new and he knows the guides are good, thinks the seals could be it. Said the leak-down test could be not super accurate and he wouldnt instantly rule it bad.

I would LOVE to believe this. Oh how easy a solution but it never is that easy for me. If it is however, I will have to pull the head anyway. So, while I have the head off, what can I do to rule out anything else? Should I pull the whole motor and bring it to a shop to have the bores checked? The ring gaps checks? Would hate to pull the head, replace the seals and then have that no be it and then wonder what else.

 Posted: Mar 23, 2015 07:12AM
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My car has given me nothing put problems lately. I am casing (at least I think) a few things at once, which is never good. The main one is the oil consumption. This motor was rebuilt (brand new crank, all bearings, piston, rings, etc) less then 3000 miles ago. Broke it in properely (read a million ways to go about it) with proper oil and break in additive. It has only had VR-1 20/50 in it as well. The motor was eating oil at a rate of a quart every 300 miles or so. I had Keith Calver make me a head about 1000 miles ago, hoping that worn valve guides were part of the issue (I also have wanted a head since I bought the car. haha). Maybe it helped maybe not but currently the motor is eating oil again and smoking. I notice the smoke after idling and taking off, spirited driving and on downhill engine breaking with throttle blips. Time to get more answers. Compression test and leak down.

So, I have used three different compression testers. Two good and one junk. The two good have similar numbers. So, this is was done on a warm motor, all plugs removed, fuel pump disconnected and throttle wide open. Did the test twice. in PSI
1. 180     180
2. 175     178
3. 185     185
4. 190     190
 
Ok, great. So the compression is good...or is that actually high? I never get a straight answer. Anyway, onto the leak-down test, where the confusion starts. With the motor still warm, I removed the rocker cover, jacked the car up on one side, and put the car in 4th. used my thumb to feel for TDC on 1 and then used a flashlight to really see, moving piston a bit back and forth to be sure. Did this for all. At some points, the test actually made the piston move though. Actually go back down the cylinder. Regardless, I plugged away till I got it right and all 4 test.. Here they are.
1. 30%
2. 30%
3. 25%
4. 25%
 
These are obviously out of spec but I find it strange that all are that way and so close to each other. I will say that all the plugs look similar. Burning correct or a bit lean with the same whitish crusty deposits at the base and threads. I'd say that all cylinders are getting oil in them just by the looks of the top of the pistons that I could see through the plug holes. While doing the test, I removed the airbox, clutch side and timing side breathers and would run to the rear to listen to exhaust pipe. Small tube to my ear. With all cylinders, I heard the air in the crankcase. It wasn't massive but certainly there. 
 
So, I have read that you can have good compression but bad leak down. Kind of like blowing up a tube with a slow leak. It will get up there while cranking over but leak out once air is removed. I just dont know if I did everything right. Should I have put a couple dropped of oil even though I had warmed the car up prior and it maybe sat for an hour tops. Also, oil in the cylinders is kinda my problem. Haha. The test was done at 90psi and gauge zeroed out each time. I really don't want to tear into the motor before I know what I'm looking to do.
 
The way I see it, if I am getting, say massive crank case pressure and oil is being forced in places, I can only imagine that the only place it could be getting to and into intake would be from the breather pipes. But that would have to be a ton of oil getting through. Seems a bit far fetched. That gets me back to the Pistons and rings I guess. What do you guys think?
 
 

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