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 Posted: Apr 14, 2015 06:44PM
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Yes a 5/16" bolt will fit if you drill the split boss out.

Kevin G

1360 power- Morris 1300 auto block, S crank & rods, Russell Engineering RE282 sprint cam, over 125HP at crank, 86.6HP at the wheels @7000+.

 Posted: Apr 14, 2015 04:51PM
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Very interesting safety information.  I have recently rebuilt my 1965 MK 1 rack with new pinion bearings, boots, seals, inner nylon bushing.  

The pinion has the circumference groove.  

Before I drill the hole larger at the end of the column where the pinch bolt installs,  does anyone know if there is enough clearance to use a 5/16" grade 8 bolt for the pinch bolt ( rather than the 1/4" bolt ) with

the pinion that has the circumference groove?

I will be widening the slot where the pinch bolt installs.

Thanks for your help.

Jim

 

 Posted: Apr 1, 2015 04:12PM
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US

It's not too much trouble for me because I know all the rack centering and steering wheel indexing, and how to make the turn signals cancel at the right time!  I like the flying reference, and pilot Todd should too!

I have a new rack at home waiting for me to get motivated to install in my MK 1 Cooper S, so one of the close ratio LHD versions. I was just talking to Todd when I went home for lunch, so I looked at it, and it DOES have just the notch to locate the bolt that clamps the pinch bolt, as Steve was describing earlier. That might be good FYI if you're considering changing your rack. This one cannot fail from just the spline inside the pinchbolt going away!  Of course, mine can't fail anyway because my Flaming River tilt column doesn't use the pinchbolt!

This is the one I bought, the photo is not current, but it has the locating groove for the shaft of the pinchbolt:

//www.minimania.com/part/C-FAM7307/Steering-Rack-Mk-Ii-Left-Hand-Drive-Quick-Ratio 

 Posted: Mar 31, 2015 02:45PM
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US

Sorry, was not saying you failed in any way. Reply to Jemal saying getting everything right in the steering was to much trouble. Like flying take off is optional landing is not. Steve (CTR)

 Posted: Mar 31, 2015 11:57AM
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Going over Putney bridge one day back in the 70's my Mini Marcos had the same failure fortunatly there was a large Red routemaster to stop me going up onto the sidewalk and doing any personal injuries................Oh and dad sorted the damage to the bus it was one of his out of Putney bus garage!

Mini's are like buses they come along in a bunch

 Posted: Mar 31, 2015 08:34AM
 Edited:  Mar 31, 2015 08:43AM
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Good job Sean.  I thought that if you aligned the rack well you'd be ok, but the problem here is previous bodges.

FWIW I've posted this on the Facebook mini groups and getting quite the response.  It's a well-known problem I wasn't aware of, several cases mentioned of blokes crashing or almost crashing within the last few years.

Steve the discovery here is that you can align the rack perfectly, but your splines are almost gone anyway.  I'm sure I did a good job aligning mine.

 

 Posted: Mar 31, 2015 07:00AM
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CA

Well, I am glad that it happened where it did and nobody was hurt!
Also, you have pointed out something that I am definitely going to check on the LeMons car prior to the next race! We are using an ADO16 steering column to put the wheel farther back and lower in the cockpit. We were careful with rack alignment, but never gave the slot/bolt a second look. The racecar was clocked over 100mph into turn 1 at the Ridge, that would be a heck of a time to lose directional input.

If you are looking to replace the column, I have a spare MK1, but I would need to check the splines...

 

Sean Windrum

1996 MGF VVC
1970 1275 GT Racer
66 Austin Countryman
63 997 Cooper (Under Construction)
63 MG 1100

 

 Posted: Mar 31, 2015 06:50AM
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US

Who does not bench center a rack and check the position of said notch then cross check column to wheel to insure that is correct. Once under the car or face down in the floor board is a heck of a time to be checking things. Steve (CTR)

 Posted: Mar 31, 2015 05:10AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jemal

The split in the pinchbolt USED to be adequate, before all the teeth in the column end  went away.... and what I mean about the car "in the air" is to eliminate the friction of the tires with the weight of the car on them.  It takes a keen mechanical sense to perfectly align the rack to the angle of the column and the FIXED pinch bolt. ANY misalignment causes the column/rack connection to bind TWICE during EVERY rotation!  The very best safety back-up is the indexed slot for the bolt (on the rack stub-shaft), rather than the groove machined all around.... but that would be more difficult for indexing the steering wheel and getting the turn signals to cancel at the proper orientation.

I've proposed and offered to repair the shaft by eliminating the entire lower part that makes up the pinch-bolt in favor of the little u-joint from Flaming River/ Summit Racing.  But like I told Todd, it wouldn't be "cheap"!   The U-joint is 70 or 80 bucks, I'd have to trim about 2.5 inches off the column tube (getting rid of where the felt bushing lives), machine the shaft area where the bushing used to go to the square DD shape that is standard for many steering systems, including Flaming River( to mount the other end of the u-joint to the column shaft), then fabricate a two-half bushing to mount in the bottom of the tube (instead of the felt) above the u-joint.  It would be a fabulous fix, now providing a u-joint that gives you WAY more adjustability to lower your column SAFELY!

But with so many later shafts available on fleabay, folks will just buy those, and take their chances with someone else's USED pinch-bolt!  You can duct tape a momentary button to the shifter for a horn button, and most will live with non-cancelling turn signals!

Or for about the same money (as fabricating a fix for the pinchbolt), I can build you a complete custom tilt column (with a u-joint at the bottom- NO PINCHBOLT!) that takes into account your height and where you want your seat mounted. A sleek stainless steel, brand-new column that directly accepts a MOMO steering wheel, and simple plug in for turn signals and horn.  Still, most will opt for the fleabay route!  

I'll say again that I want $500 for my complete Mark 1 column with a pinch bolt as perfect as the day it was installed in my 66 Cooper S back in June 1966.  Perfect right up to the horn button!  Still people go to fleabay!  Well, I'm patient, and you won't find mine there. The longer I have it, the higher the price goes! I understand that the column and original steering wheel of My S1 Lotus Elan sells for more than 3000 POUNDS on ebayuk!! I can hang on to my original Cooper S column a while longer.....

Yes but for safety and piece of mind worth every bit of effort it takes imo. I have found if the rack is centered it is not an issue and all lines up correctly.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: Mar 30, 2015 05:39PM
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US

The split in the pinchbolt USED to be adequate, before all the teeth in the column end  went away.... and what I mean about the car "in the air" is to eliminate the friction of the tires with the weight of the car on them.  It takes a keen mechanical sense to perfectly align the rack to the angle of the column and the FIXED pinch bolt. ANY misalignment causes the column/rack connection to bind TWICE during EVERY rotation!  The very best safety back-up is the indexed slot for the bolt (on the rack stub-shaft), rather than the groove machined all around.... but that would be more difficult for indexing the steering wheel and getting the turn signals to cancel at the proper orientation.

I've proposed and offered to repair the shaft by eliminating the entire lower part that makes up the pinch-bolt in favor of the little u-joint from Flaming River/ Summit Racing.  But like I told Todd, it wouldn't be "cheap"!   The U-joint is 70 or 80 bucks, I'd have to trim about 2.5 inches off the column tube (getting rid of where the felt bushing lives), machine the shaft area where the bushing used to go to the square DD shape that is standard for many steering systems, including Flaming River( to mount the other end of the u-joint to the column shaft), then fabricate a two-half bushing to mount in the bottom of the tube (instead of the felt) above the u-joint.  It would be a fabulous fix, now providing a u-joint that gives you WAY more adjustability to lower your column SAFELY!

But with so many later shafts available on fleabay, folks will just buy those, and take their chances with someone else's USED pinch-bolt!  You can duct tape a momentary button to the shifter for a horn button, and most will live with non-cancelling turn signals!

Or for about the same money (as fabricating a fix for the pinchbolt), I can build you a complete custom tilt column (with a u-joint at the bottom- NO PINCHBOLT!) that takes into account your height and where you want your seat mounted. A sleek stainless steel, brand-new column that directly accepts a MOMO steering wheel, and simple plug in for turn signals and horn.  Still, most will opt for the fleabay route!  

I'll say again that I want $500 for my complete Mark 1 column with a pinch bolt as perfect as the day it was installed in my 66 Cooper S back in June 1966.  Perfect right up to the horn button!  Still people go to fleabay!  Well, I'm patient, and you won't find mine there. The longer I have it, the higher the price goes! I understand that the column and original steering wheel of My S1 Lotus Elan sells for more than 3000 POUNDS on ebayuk!! I can hang on to my original Cooper S column a while longer.....

 Posted: Mar 30, 2015 11:34AM
 Edited:  May 3, 2015 10:33AM
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Significant discovery now that spline wear is far worse on one side, which points to the classic u-bolt misalignment at some time in the last half century.  

I hate to suggest everybody pull their column and take a look but I can't see a way around that.  This danger is right up there with the loosening tie rod nut that has put people into center dividers.  Several guys have now told me they've seen this multiple times over the years, so it's worth checking your car.

A couple years ago I pulled the column because I was able to pull the wheel up and down a little, Mike Kimball mentioned this too. Don't think I looked at the splines closely then - I was more concerned with getting the alignment correct between the rack and column.

I did a good job aligning the rack with the column by rotating the rack to the sweet spot where the rack spud is perfectly aligned with the column and the turning resistance is the lowest.  It's still aligned today and I don't think that I misadjusted it to cause this problem.  It may have been off before though.

However just getting off the phone with Jemal now he says that the car should be in the air for the U-bolt adjustment.  I don't see how that would make a difference but am interested to hear from you guys on that.

Alex makes a good point about a shouldered bolt possibly bottoming out, just not the case here.  It's not evident in the pics but the groove is clearly not long enough as designed to allow the bolt to squeeze the rack spud completely.  Appears to me that the pinch bolt would be lucky to squeeze much at all beyond the bottom 1/2" of the spud.

 

 Posted: Mar 30, 2015 10:29AM
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US

Can you still get racks with a single slot(groove) location or are the only ones available the version with a groove around the whole circumference?

I know the old rack on one of our Travellers had the single, but the new rack had a circumference groove.

Terry

 Posted: Mar 30, 2015 08:07AM
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The column splines are a lot softer than the rack splines which never seem to wear, if you look at Todds picture the rack splines look brand new with the column splines almost completely erased. As pointed out you can open up the clamp gap with a cutting wheel to tighten things up but i prefer the rack with just the slot in it and the bigger bolt and a self locking nut so if it does come loose over time it is still held in position.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: Mar 30, 2015 07:28AM
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US

Wow, that is wicked scary. Like you, I'm usually blasting about like a loon. Things could get ugly VERY quickly.


So, is the problem that the slit down the shaft isnt long enough to allow proper clamping? allowing only half the splines to really tighten around the rack splines? I am TOTALLY checking mine ASAP

 Posted: Mar 29, 2015 10:59AM
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US

Super scary.  Glad you're OK Todd.  And yes, I'm sure I know the road you were on before the incident.  Not much but drop offs and trees about as big around as the mini on the sides.  

 Posted: Mar 29, 2015 09:49AM
 Edited:  Mar 30, 2015 09:43AM
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Cool twini story miniestate.

Jemal's baby just dug up this splined piece from Summit racing from his toy box.  He says it's delicious and easy on the gums.

Otherwise I was about to get a Mk2 column shaft off eBay because it looks like the suppliers can only get Mk3-on.  Looks like Mk1 and Mk2 are the same shaft.

EDIT: Lance Smurf Brown says no, the Mk2 shaft doesn't have the hole through the hub for the horn wire.

So I'll report back how this works out, perhaps this approach will benefit everybody.  It appears that a U-joint would be easier on the rack.

 Posted: Mar 28, 2015 08:00PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Air2air

 

Thank you guys for the helpful suggestions.  Here's the triage.  I don't get how splines can wear here since these pieces aren't supposed to move against each other.  The pinch bolt was on solidly.  

It appears there was movement between the two - though I never had a hint of steering issues or wheel movement before.  Interesting that Miguel was parking, I was going really slow too.

Mike Kimball just told me now that he had two cars with this, and it was due to the outer spline slot not being big enough.  So cranking on the pinch bolt was no longer tightening it.  Exactly as Dr. Mini says, same fix too with the angle grinder.

Another thing I'm noticing from the pics is there is some crap in that slot, should go look at that now.

Again, day before yesterday I was blasting through the trees for a good few hours, getting sideways etc.  Well at least I would've died happy...

(Edit) more from Mike:

what's shown in yer pics is that the slit pretty much ends about at the end of the shiny wear area which means that the tip of the rack spud prevents the rest of the column from (effectively) clamping down.
- the "tube" can't crush down around the rac
k stub at all evenly - it's prevented by the small area where there is effectively no slot at the end of the stub. It kinda makes the whole assembly like one of those rubber cone-shaped jar-opener aid things on late-night as-seen-onTV channels. Only not as effective.

you only need to extend the slit about 3/16-1/8" beyond where the spud will end when it's all mated up. I have a couple of racks and columns in the garage, I'll measure how deep the hole needs to be and how long the slot needs to be a touch later and get back to everyone...

I don't like the rack that you have for that reason. The other type with the slot in it instead of the all around groove can come loose but does not fail completely as the bolt still holds it somewhat. Also i have installed a 5/16" grade 8 bolt with a nyloc nut in this type of rack and it fits very snug so snug in fact it will not slip even without tightening it although you obviously do. To add to Kevins comments also the splines can be cleaned up but yours look too far gone Todd, time for a new spline end or replacement shaft but i would look into a new rack with the slot in the future.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: Mar 28, 2015 04:02PM
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CA

Miniestate, sort of.

I believe it was one of the rear wheels that got lose from the modified fixed position.

 Posted: Mar 28, 2015 03:06PM
jeg
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Egad!  Glad you were neither hurt nor in an 'inconvenient' location. 

 

I rebuilt my steering column last year with new rack-to-body seal, new felt and plastic bush at the top and replaced the pinch-bolt with a genuine item. 

Pinch-bolt = p/n BH604111 - 1/4" UNF x 1 3/8" long with ½" non-threaded area.

The peasants are revolting...          

"Gone with the Wind" - a brief yet moving vignette concerning lactose intolerance

 Posted: Mar 28, 2015 11:35AM
 Edited:  Mar 28, 2015 11:59AM
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Wasn't it steering failure that almost took John Cooper's life when he was driving a Twini Mini returning from the airport once??? I think it was in 1963?

After a little digging I found the story >>> //www.classicandsportscar.com/news/csc-features/mini-twini-twin-engined-four-wheel-drive-concept-tested-in-full

"It's a good day when you wake up with a Woody!"

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