Created by: | Orig. Posting Date | User Name | Edit Date |
| Feb 17, 2016 09:38AM | martinb | |
| Feb 17, 2016 07:07AM | kenatminimania | |
| Feb 16, 2016 09:35PM | martinb | |
| Feb 16, 2016 01:38PM | martinb | Edited: Feb 16, 2016 01:44PM |
| Feb 15, 2016 08:21AM | kenatminimania | |
| Feb 12, 2016 01:01PM | martinb | |
| Feb 1, 2016 02:50PM | martinb |
Posted:
Feb 17, 2016
09:38AM
|
Total posts: 9
Last post: Feb 17, 2016 Member since:Feb 1, 2016
|
Cars in Garage: 0
Photos: 0 WorkBench Posts: 0 |
Oh, sure. I've done that before. Most recently with a broken wire between the main car body and the rear hatch. My exterior hatch release stopped working a few months back and it turned out to be a completely broken wire inside that flexible rubber boot between the body and the hatch.
The problem I'm facing now is that the segment of the harness that has the broken wire is buried deep within the pocket in the body that the mechanism fits into. There's no way I have enough room to reach in and do any work without gaining access in some other manner, preferrably from the outside. But from what I understand after looking through the service manual for the top, the only way to peel back the fabric on the outside just behind the rear window (which would give me the access I need) is to remove the entire top, mechanism and all, from the car.
The other option I'm considering is removing all the trim pieces that snap/screw to the top frame along the top of the windows and perhaps, by putting the top part way down to take the tension off the fabric, I might be able to get in there and run a new, much longer cable along side the existing one, and then splice it in closer to the motor and closer to the relay. The challenge will be 1. to be able to feed the cable where I need it to go and 2. to be able to tie it off securely to the existing cable so it doesn't get pinched or cut.
Just for the heck of it, I'm going to have the stealer quote on it as well as a local shop that specializes in the repair of convertible tops. Which route I take is TBD.
|
|
Total posts: 2271
Last post: May 23, 2023 Member since:Dec 29, 2004
|
Cars in Garage: 1
Photos: 9 WorkBench Posts: 0 |
|
Seems there's a break in the wire somewhere between the relay socket and the folding sunroof motor. And that harness is not easy to get at or replace/repair. And it could be in more than one location. Crap again....
The first thing I did to confirm the break was to swap the two relays involved with opening and closing the sunroof. I still got current on the blue/white motor lead (to ground) and no current from the red/black wire. (Same as before.) I then removed both relays from their sockets and confirmed which terminal in the socket supplied current to the sunroof motor. The two relays are identical so the terminal location in one socket would be the same in the other socket. I checked the socket supplying current to the blue/white motor wire and presto, I had continuity (as expected). I then checked the corresponding terminal in the other socket and.....nada. Open circuit.
'Looks like I'll just pull the other interior side panel out and then call around for someone who has experience with the 1st gen mini convertible top and see how much they'll charge for the necessary work. The wiring harnesses are relatively cheap, so I may have both replaced if they have to go in all the way. I was sure hoping it would be a simple fix. I suppose I can take some solace in the fact that I narrowed it down so much which hopefully should save me some money.
About an hour later.......
I've isolated the break in the wiring by hooking up my Fluke meter to both ends of the broken wire (at motor and at relay) and reaching in and manipulating the wire as it bends around various parts of the top frame. The break is in the main curve where the rear most part of the top mechanism pivots. If I can just get in there, I could splice new lengths of wire in there and repair the break. Of course, the wires could be seriously compromised at some of the other bending points, but at least this would get me going for awhile. So, does anyone know how to access the back of the mechanism through the outside without removing the entire top from the car or needing to take the top halfway apart? Is there a trick to pulling back the fabric at the rear of the rear window? Or am I stuck doing a major disassembly?
Or, is it possible to access the wiring at some point just south of the bow, cut it, and then feed/pull in new wires? Or just run a new wire and leave the old in place? The problems as I see it is that the wiring harness is held in place in numerous places with clips and tie wraps and that would hinder my removal of the old wiring. And even if I got new wires in there, I'd not be able to properly secure them in place and while that might work for awhile, the chances of pinching/cutting the new wires would be increased.
Meanwhile, the sunroof is working again, though I haven't tried opening the top all the way as the wire that I manipulated could easily just go open circuit again. So for now I'm still driving with the top up. 'Supposed to rain tomorrow anyway.
Thanks much for all your advice!
Nice job isolating the fault in the wiring!
If this were my car, I would 'bridge' the break by running a separate wire between the two points - just splice it in at the ends and leave the defective wire... Secure the wire the best you can to limit future problems.
As long as the break in the wire is not 'open' and shorting against something - this should work fine...
Cheers,
Ken
|
|
Total posts: 9
Last post: Feb 17, 2016 Member since:Feb 1, 2016
|
Cars in Garage: 0
Photos: 0 WorkBench Posts: 0 |
Seems there's a break in the wire somewhere between the relay socket and the folding sunroof motor. And that harness is not easy to get at or replace/repair. And it could be in more than one location. Crap again....
The first thing I did to confirm the break was to swap the two relays involved with opening and closing the sunroof. I still got current on the blue/white motor lead (to ground) and no current from the red/black wire. (Same as before.) I then removed both relays from their sockets and confirmed which terminal in the socket supplied current to the sunroof motor. The two relays are identical so the terminal location in one socket would be the same in the other socket. I checked the socket supplying current to the blue/white motor wire and presto, I had continuity (as expected). I then checked the corresponding terminal in the other socket and.....nada. Open circuit.
'Looks like I'll just pull the other interior side panel out and then call around for someone who has experience with the 1st gen mini convertible top and see how much they'll charge for the necessary work. The wiring harnesses are relatively cheap, so I may have both replaced if they have to go in all the way. I was sure hoping it would be a simple fix. I suppose I can take some solace in the fact that I narrowed it down so much which hopefully should save me some money.
About an hour later.......
I've isolated the break in the wiring by hooking up my Fluke meter to both ends of the broken wire (at motor and at relay) and reaching in and manipulating the wire as it bends around various parts of the top frame. The break is in the main curve where the rear most part of the top mechanism pivots. If I can just get in there, I could splice new lengths of wire in there and repair the break. Of course, the wires could be seriously compromised at some of the other bending points, but at least this would get me going for awhile. So, does anyone know how to access the back of the mechanism through the outside without removing the entire top from the car or needing to take the top halfway apart? Is there a trick to pulling back the fabric at the rear of the rear window? Or am I stuck doing a major disassembly?
Or, is it possible to access the wiring at some point just south of the bow, cut it, and then feed/pull in new wires? Or just run a new wire and leave the old in place? The problems as I see it is that the wiring harness is held in place in numerous places with clips and tie wraps and that would hinder my removal of the old wiring. And even if I got new wires in there, I'd not be able to properly secure them in place and while that might work for awhile, the chances of pinching/cutting the new wires would be increased.
Meanwhile, the sunroof is working again, though I haven't tried opening the top all the way as the wire that I manipulated could easily just go open circuit again. So for now I'm still driving with the top up. 'Supposed to rain tomorrow anyway.
Thanks much for all your advice!
Edited:
Feb 16, 2016
01:44PM
|
|
Total posts: 9
Last post: Feb 17, 2016 Member since:Feb 1, 2016
|
Cars in Garage: 0
Photos: 0 WorkBench Posts: 0 |
'Did some work today. Another, more detailed scan showed no faults, though during a component by component activation check, I found a blank result for the right stowage latch. I pressed the "continue" button on the scanner and that cleared it and it then showed "contact open" as it should.
I did some voltage measurements at the connector that plugs onto the sunroof motor. The blue wire with the white stripe showed 12+ (14+ with engine running) volts when I checked it by pressing the close button. (Nothing with the open button as it should.) When I checked the red wire with the black stripe, I got nothing when pressing either the close or open button. (Open button should have produced voltage.) Both these tests were done with the meter grounded to the motor frame.
So, it appears that I'm not getting voltage to the motor when I press the open button. And I'm not getting a complete circuit and voltage to the motor when I press the close button either. The two relays that operate the folding sunroof motor not only send current to the motor, but they also provide the path to ground through the as well. The default position of the relay is making a connection to ground. When one button is pushed, the corressponding relay sends current to the motor and the path to ground from the motor goes through the other relay. When the other button is pushed, this path is simply reversed. I'll be checking the relay itself tomorrow or during the week and also checking the wire path from the relay to the motor on the red/black wire.
Also, I tried cranking the sunroof open manually and when I opened it far enough, I was then able to press the down button and the top completely came down per normal. This was nice because it made it very easy for me to get into the back and remove the left rear interior side panel so I can get at the wiring and relays. And the top went back up again per normal though I had to manually crank the sunroof closed. What's interesting is that the hydraulic pump would not shut off like it normally would. I chalked this up to the non operational sunroof motor which normally would close the latches and then shut off the pump. No bigger at this point.
I also pulled the sunroof motor and checked it. It runs perfectly in both directions and while I was at it, I lubed the gears before I reinstalled it.
So, here are my theories on why there's no current to the sunroof motor.
The first and I think the most likely is that the relay that controls the opening of the sunroof is malfunctioning. It's not sending current to the motor to open it and since the ground path for closing the sunroof also goes through this relay, that's why the motor won't run even though I confirmed 12+ volts at the connector when pressing the close button.
The second theory is that that the red/black wire is broken somewhere. This wire provides the juice for the motor opening the sunroof and also provides the ground circuit for closing the sunroof. This theory also makes sense.
I will check the wiring first as it is easy to check. And I'll check the relay as well, even if the wire checks out bad. Of interest is that when I press the open and close buttons, the appropriate relays click, but though they are identical relays, one sounds different from the other. That may tip the scales towards the relay being the problem. But we'll see.
FYI, the Schwaben scan tool is really great and easy to use. If anyone's looking for a top notch scan tool, I highly recommend it. I can do so much more than the much simpler ones that work with phones and tablets and can only read the usual OBD2 codes. The Schwaben unit also reads and clears and analyzes all the other body, suspension, ABS, and airbag codes. Very nice. And though it's 200 dollars, it's already almost paid for itself as my local shop wanted 125 for a full vehicle scan.
|
|
Total posts: 2271
Last post: May 23, 2023 Member since:Dec 29, 2004
|
Cars in Garage: 1
Photos: 9 WorkBench Posts: 0 |
|
Try checking to see if you have power to the main motor when you activate the switch.
Also, if you found: "I had a problem with the rear hatch recently where one of the wires that goes between the body and the hatch door broke inside that rubber boot thingy." - then there is a good chance other wires may have had issues - check continuity with all wiring in the same vicinity...
Let us know what you find.
Ken
|
|
Total posts: 9
Last post: Feb 17, 2016 Member since:Feb 1, 2016
|
Cars in Garage: 0
Photos: 0 WorkBench Posts: 0 |
|
|
Total posts: 9
Last post: Feb 17, 2016 Member since:Feb 1, 2016
|
Cars in Garage: 0
Photos: 0 WorkBench Posts: 0 |
Greetings!
I’ve just joined this forum and have a problem with the top on my ’06 Cabriolet. The top stopped working. Entirely. And none of the usual culprits seem to be the cause.
First off, the car: ’06 Cabriolet, every possible JCW option including LSD, strut brace and aero kit. Brakes upgraded to Stoptech slotted rotors all around, all SS lines, Hawk HP+ in front, HPS in rear. Schroth four point harness installed for track days along with NM rear lower control arms. ATI damper. Forge coolant tank. Etc.
The problem: All of a sudden, one morning, the top on my '06 JCW cabriolet stopped working completely. The light on the top switch does not light when I press the button and the top makes no noise. It's like it's completely dead. Even the sunroof won't work. I've checked the luggage tray switch and that's depressed as it should be. And even if it was open, the sunroof portion should still work, which it doesn’t. The rear hatch switch works and turns the inside light on and off when it's depressed so I know that works. And the front hood/bonnet switch seems to be fine and is properly engaged with the latch. The open bonnet/hatch dash warning light is not on while driving. What's weird is that the open bonnet/hatch dash warning light lights up after I turn the ignition off AND open the door. When I do that, the warning light on the dash will flash 5 times (along with the chime) and at the same time, the red light on the top button will also flash, though at a slightly faster pace than the dash light. Once the dash warning light has flashed 5 times, everything shuts off. The open bonnet/hatch dash warning light will also go on and flash 5 times when I first open the door but the red light on the top button will not always flash with it, or if it does flash, may only flash once or twice.
One more thing of note is that when I press the down button for the top, I can hear a very faint click coming from the left rear of the car where the hydraulic pump is. There is also a click from the same location when I press the up button. So, I do have power to the circuit.
I’ve also confirmed that the connector to the sunroof motor is properly connected. And I looked around for any other obvious problems. I’ve even disconnected the battery ground for about 15 minutes and then reconnected it in an effort to reset things. (Perhaps I didn’t leave it disconnected long enough as I didn’t lose my radio settings and I didn’t need to reinitialize my windows.)
What I have not done yet is to pull the left side interior trim in the trunk to check wiring, connections, etc., and to see if I can isolate the source of the clicking when I press the top button.
I drive with the top down almost all the time. Like daily, even in the winter, as long as it's not raining. And not being able to put the top down is really bugging me now. I’m hoping I can get some clues from folks here so I can avoid taking my car to a specialist or worse, the dealer.
One more thing, I had a problem with the rear hatch recently where one of the wires that goes between the body and the hatch door broke inside that rubber boot thingy. I couldn't open the hatch the normal way and had to crawl over the back seat. I pulled everything apart and spliced in a new section of wire and restored normal function. I don't think any problems there would affect the top function, though. The hatch works normally for opening and closing and it unlocks with the key fob normally as well.
So….does anyone have any ideas that I haven’t covered already?
Cheers!
