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 Posted: May 6, 2016 07:05PM
 Edited:  May 6, 2016 07:09PM
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Funnily enough Dan all my spades are a shiny clean metal, but that's only because I'd emery clothed them all a year ago when I had the intermittent blinker, brake and reverse light issue.  

I even took the whole fuse block out back then to clean up the back in my attempt to restore conductivity between Pins 1-2.

I thought I'd licked it, but the problem kept coming back until I realized the issue wasn't the fuse box at all, but rather the black rectangular connectors on the end of the White and Green connectors hanging off those pins.

I tapped them one day with a screwdriver and a white-ish corrosion powder fell out of the black plastic cover.  But once flushed with WD-40 (like I handled the issue this time), I hadn't had the same problem with blinker, brake or reverse lights for over a year.

I should have remembered that "fix" this go round, but at that time I wasn't seeing ANY voltage across the fuse box on Pins 1-2 so I kept digging, whereas in this case I WAS getting 12V not only at both fuse tangs sides for pins 3+4, but also all the way into the cabin to the main lighting switch - so this time around it seemed like all the connections were sound.

I'll never assume that again!  And I think I'm going to WD-40 ALL the connectors, working or not.  I might go so far as the smear everything with dielectric grease just to keep out the weather!

I've already bought the new 10-way enclosed mini-fuse box and when it arrives, I am going to re-pin ALL of my wires with these heat shrink encased 14 gauge connectors (click here) so they'll be weather sealed at the wire side and so I can push them on real tight to hopefully snug up and "seal" against the fuse box side.

BTW, most of the wires connecting to the fuse box look like 14 gauge...is that correct? Or should I buy the 12-10 gauge connectors? (they are true copper and might hold up better)

Thanks again for your guidance - this went much faster and smoother with your help.

 Posted: May 6, 2016 05:17AM
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CA
I'm glad to read you are up and running.  Good to know.
Was the oxidation on the terminals brown or green? I'm willing to bet that if you remove the fuse box mounting screws and look behind, you'll see a beautiful shade of green ... maybe not now, but eventually.  When (not just "if") the troubles creep back in, you'll know what to do.

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: May 6, 2016 05:11AM
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Glad you got it sorted. The old saying is 90% of Lucas electrical problems are the connections.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: May 5, 2016 06:34PM
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Dan!  You were so right about oxidation!  Not the rivets in my case, but within the Female Spade connectors underneath the black rectangular covers!

I finally solved the mystery when I decided not to trust the 12V I was measuring in the white socket on the Brown wire feeding the main lighting switch.  

 

Since I knew the rest of the lighting loom was working when I jumpered from the Brown Pin 2 on the fuse box to the red pin 4 and I got lights, I thought maybe something is wrong not with the "out" wiring of the switch (the red and blue wires), but maybe something is wrong with the Brown "in", 

 

So I ran a long wire from the lighting switch's Brown wire socket in the cabin out to the pin 4 connector on the fuse box that fed the lighting part of the loom and I STILL could not get the lights to light.  

 

So I looked upstream of the feed to the lighting switch in the Hayne's circuit diagram and leveraging your "simplified circuit description", I saw that the Brown wire in the cockpit had to actually be one of the two Brown wires plugged into Pin 2 on the fuse box anyway!

So why wouldn't it feed the lights, just like a direct jumper on the fuse box?

 

Leaving my long wire connected to the white socket in the cabin, I unplugged both Brown wire connectors form the fuse box and tried to get a continuity "beep" on each to find the one that fed the switch - but neither beeped!  So I switched from the tester clip to a steel needle in the tester clip jaws and I scratched around in each Brown wire connector and then suddenly one of them beeped.  I'd found the upstream wire.

 

Then it dawned on me that there must be a boat-load of corrosion in that clip.  

In the end the mystery simply turned out to be a connector on the fuse box that fed the main lighting switch 
that was badly oxidized underneath its cover - it read 12V in the cabin, but that was half the story.  

 

Even though it was showing 12V on inspection at the socket/switch... under a real load, that connection failed to deliver anything strong enough to light the lights..

 
I shot both connectors with WD-40 and plugged them both on and off and onto the fuse box spades several times to restore a good connection.
 
I have lighting again!
 
Yay!

[so lesson learned: unplug and reseat all connectors as one of the first testing steps you do!]

 Posted: May 5, 2016 05:11AM
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I'm with you Malsal!

I did some hunting around and I think I'm going to get this one - //tinyurl.com/10wayFuseBox - I like that it has a cover and is supposedly for boats too (so possibly water resistant), plus it seems pretty compact being just about 14 x 4.5 x 4 cm (5.5 x 1.75 x 1.5in).

I hope to do some more trouble-shooting later today if the rain stops.

Thanks again!
Jim

 Posted: May 5, 2016 04:06AM
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If you find out the fuse box is an issue you would be way ahead of the game to replace it with a blade type one. There are plenty on line and Napa sells one with 6 terminals and a plastic cover for around $20.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: May 4, 2016 07:31PM
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Thanks for the tip re: revisiting the harness Malsal.

I did do a bunch of mucking about under the hood and I suspect that must have disturbed something. I'll give everything s thorough look-see before I put the battery back in.

Thanks too for the suggestion of checking the multi-connectors in the cabin. I have been being a bit myopic focusing on the under bonnet area where I was working when it's entirely possible that something inside the cabin actually "went south" by sheer coincidence.

I also really appreciate your detailed recommendations Dan.

Especially the explanation about the Battery under load - if I have a vicious short that could be the problem AND symptom. Thanks too for the plain language description of the lighting circuit - it is going to make tracing everything a lot easier.

I'm afraid I wasn't "complete" in my chronology leading up to the issue and I might have lead you to believe that the battery had gone flat before my test this morning.

Here's the correction:
1- I did the wiper work on Saturday 4/30
2- Then I drove all over a rainy Manhattan and Chinatown on Sunday 5/1 (thrilled at my lively wiper arms - having replaced all the grease in the motor and toothed cable guides and thrilled to have a clear screen with out arcs of un-wiped water BTW - yay!).
3- And the Mini was stopped and started several times, each with strong crank.
4- It was only late in the day on Sunday when I realized that I had no lights because I tried to throw them on just for safety for the late afternoon ride home.
5- But the Mini was a champ all the way home with everything BUT lights working perfectly.

(Additionally, just to document it: I don't work with the radio on, and I leave my interior light switch in the off position until I turn it on/off by hand)

That said, I'm happy to report that the trickle charge Battery Tender was already green when I returned home from work this evening and the battery reads a healthy 13.11V, I've seen the trickle charge take several days to bring a really flat battery back (my old one before the Optima), so I am hopeful that it could be some weird and unexpected load like s short.

I agree with your suggestions about the fuse box and feel they are likely spot on. I had an issue with it about a year ago, and thought I'd gotten it sorted, but maybe it's just gotten worse and the red on fuse 4 is not feeding through.

I researched 10-way mini-fuse holders with tabs on each side of the individual fuses (like the stock fuse holder). I figured I could replicate the fuse holder/distribution panel functionality of the factory 8-tab/4-fuse box with strategically placed jumpers. This would also have the benefit of getting the three (3) in-line fuses out from behind my carb (and any from behind my gauges if there are more in there).

My Old Fuse Box:
Wht         pin 1 Grn (brake lights, reverse, turn signals, etc. - all work)
Brn+2nd Brn pin 2 Pur (horn, headlight flasher - all work)
Grn/Y       pin 3 Grn/Brn+2nd Grn/Brn (heater, wiper, instruments - all work)
Red+2nd Red pin 4 Red/Blu (lefthand sidelights, dash lights, instruments, dim-dip relay - DON'T work)

My existing in-lines (3 behind the carb, one exposed - Haynes says there are supposed to be four in my late-ish model):
in-line fuse 1 The second Red from the box pin 4 goes to an in-line fuse that looks bodged into the harness immediately below the factory fuse box (the right side running lights - DON'T work)
in-line fuse 2 Yellow (indicators/hazards - all work)
in-line fuse 3 Blue (dim-dip lighting - high flash works)
in-line fuse 4 Brn/Wht (rear fog light?)

I figured I could wire up the new 10-way like this:

Old Box in = in / out of New Box
Wht      1 = 1 / 1 Grn
Brn      2 = 2 / 2 Pur
2nd Brn  2 = 3 / 3 with jumper up to 2 Pur (replicates two-into-one double tabs)
Grn/Y    3 = 4 / 4 Grn/Brn
         3 = jumper from 4 down to 5 / 5 2nd Grb/Brn (replicates one-goes-to-two double tabs)
Red      4 = 6 / 6 Red/Blu
2nd Red  4 = 7 / 7 jumper up to 6 Red/Blu (replicates two-into-one double tabs)

In-lines -  in / out of New Box
Yel          8 / 8 Yel
Blu          9 / 9 Blu
Brn/Wht     10 / 10 Brn/Wht

More on this tomorrow morning!  Thanks for all the terrific input you two!

 Posted: May 4, 2016 09:26AM
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CA
1. Basics of batteries of any size: Whether or not fully charged, they generally show full voltage when no load is applied. But when a load IS applied, they show their true ability. That's why shops provide a "load test". Your battery may be OK - just drained when you were trying to solve the circuit issue. When you were working on the wipers, you may have drained the battery by leaving the door open (dome light on) or using the car radio while you worked or something. (It happens... ask me how I know!)

2. Mini Fuse box: The typical 4-fuse box in a Mini is very prone to oxidation where you can't see it. All the fuse holding clips may look fine, and the terminals where the wires connect too. But behind the scenes (literally) the clips are riveted to the wire terminals. The back of the fuse-box is open to the elements, so the brass pieces and rivets oxidize. The result is that at some point, the resistance gets too great, and it just stops working. It usually shows up as a group of accessory items (lights, horn, brake lights, etc.) failing as a group. The solution to fuse-box woes is to replace it. You can't clean the riveted connections. (Been there, done that too.)

 [note: I am going by the Haynes Wiring Diagram 18 - 1988-on carburettor models.]

If you look at your wiring diagram, the main lighting switch is fed unfused by a brown wire, coming from the "hot" side of the fuse-box (or some joint nearby). Coming off the lighting switch is a red wire feeding (surprise) the 4th fuse (terminals 7 and 8) of the fuse-box, and the dim/dip relay. On the other end of the fuse, terminal 8 feeds sidelights, tail lights and the license plate light. The headlight flasher switch also actuates the dim/dip relay, but it is fed from the second fuse  (terminals 3 and 4) of the fuse-box, which also powers the horn and the brake-failure test switch and light.



.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: May 4, 2016 09:14AM
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Phew !!!!
I would try the switch, check the column to wiring harness plug under the column mounting bracket, and the low/high beam switch.
Also look for a harness issue between the column plug and near the wiper motor. I had an issue with a Mini that kept blowing a fuse and the dash and rear lights would go out. It turned out the wiring in the engine bay had fell down behind the speedo and rubbed on the sharp metal of the circular speedo hole and created a short. Drove me crazy looking for the issue as it was intermittent.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: May 4, 2016 07:55AM
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Test results this morning:
 
Trying a new switch as a test this morning went in a totally different direction than expected!
 
I started out:

1. Putting a 10 Amp fuse between the battery and the chassis ground in case I shorted anything too badly
2. Removing the factory switch
3. Confirming that I had 12 volts on the Brown wire entering the main lighting switch in the cabin
4. Then I clipped in my simple SP/ST switch from the Brown to Red sockets in the white receptacle
5. Throwing the new switch, I did not get dash lights as expected
6. Then I clicpped the switch between Brown to Blue
7. Throwing the switch I had no low-beams either

So same symptoms as the factory switch - no lights at all.
 
Then I thought: "If this is a short, I should see a big current drain, right?" 
 
So I switched over my multimeter to AMPs and placed it in series: Brown wire/white socket/new switch/Ammeter/white socket/Blue wire.
 
Throwing the switch promptly blew the .5 amp fast-blow fuse in the multimeter. No sparks, no smoke though and the 10 Amp fuse at the battery did not blow. This was me being stupid: I should have recalled that the lighting circuit draws 14.7 Amps (I'd read that somewhere in the forum).
 
Now the odd stuff:
When I replaced the fuse in the meter and switched back to Volts, I rechecked the Brown wire at the white socket and it appeared that I was only getting 5 volts now instead of 12V.
 
So I checked the voltage across the battery terminals and saw 5V there too.  Thniking "How could I have drained that much that quick?!?" I got my other meter out and checked again.  Same results.
 
So I disconnected the battery to bring it into the house to charge and when I checked it isolated from the Mini it was again reading 12.5 volts.
 
What would cause the battery terminals to read 5V when wired in, but 12V when isolated and NOT trip a simple 10 Amp fuse?
 
This is a very new (just six months old) Optima Batteries Yellow Top Dual-Purpose Battery ("deep cycle & Cranking power" AGM), Group 34/78, 750 CCA  battery and I seriously doubt anything is wrong with it.
 
When I get home from work I'll pop the battery back in, retest the voltage and check the other subsystems like starting.
 
Something must be wrong in my harness, something must be grounding out somewhere...?
 
Thoughts?
 

 Posted: May 3, 2016 07:50PM
 Edited:  May 5, 2016 06:39PM
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[Note this was eventually solved by cleaning up and re-seating one of the two Brown wire female spade connectors on fuse box pin 2 that runs directly to the main lighting switch in order to restore proper "under load" current and conductivity - the deceptive part of the problem was that the Brown socket on the white connector in the cabin read 12V during all meter tests, but failed to deliver under actual load conditions of all lamps drawing on it]

Hi all!


Any suggestions are welcome to help me solve this:


After pulling and replacing the wiper motor and spiral/toothed cable in order to replace a corroded wiper wheelbox, I suddenly lost running/side-lights, dash-lights and dim-dip/low-beams. (unrelated systems I know, but it was the ONLY thing I was working on before losing the lights so I thought it worth mentioning!)

 
I run a LHD 1991 Mainstream carb'd Mini Cooper in NYC.  Had it about 3.5 years.  I have NO additional driving lights in place, although the PO used to have a set wired to the high-beams.  I removed them and capped off all the extra wiring.  I have been running just the stock headlight housings that have the integrated side-light and the big, round two filament bulb for months without issue.  

I believe I have the "Pink dim-dip" relay (although I have never seen it), but I also believe the PO had removed the low-light resistor by the radiator because A) I don't see the resistor, just the socket remains and B) when the lights were working, the low-intensity filament does not light when I turn on the ignition with just the running/side-lights switched on as per that defunct UK law.

 
First thing I thought to rule out was the main lighting switch:
Approximately 6 months ago I cleaned up the interior of the main lights rocker switch because some melted plastic was preventing the dim-dip/low-beams from illuminating (I'd get sidelights only), but I am confident that it remains in proper working order because I have tested it both with a continuity tester and I have also "flipped it over" in order to plug in JUST the Brown HOT wire lead, exposing the other two pins to test.  I looked for 12+Volts to appear on the Red and Blue pins and it performs properly: in position 1 neither the pins that would plug into the Red, nor Blue wires have power; in position 2 the Red pin goes 12V; and in position 3 Blue AND Red pins go 12V.

That said, with the switch just partially plugged in so I could clip the meter to each of the exposed pins in turn, I noticed when I threw the switch, I didn't read 12V on any pin - could I be grounding out straightaway?
 
(no need to suggest adding relays, from what I've read on these forums for the past several hours, I've learned that I should definitely be fitting relays on my headlights to prevent further switch melting in future, but for just right now I simply need to get basic headlights back working before this weekend)
 
Next I looked at the fuse box:
First I checked each and every fuse in the fuse box along with the inline fuses behind the carb via continuity tester - all good, none blown.
 
Then I looked for voltage for the running/side-lights: I do not get 12V on the fuse box at pin 7 (Red side) when the main switch is in positions 2 or 3 so I feel that the problem must be between the leads from the switch in the cabin on their way to the fuse box.  I recognise that this is just running/side light operation - I'm not even talking about dim-dip/low-beams yet (presumably managed by the Pink Relay) - if the red lead from the main switch is not granting power to the Pink dip-dim relay - could that cause no low-beam headlights?
 
Further testing tells me the running/side-lights loom (after the fuse box) seems OK:
I jumpered my Brown HOT on the fuse box (via an in-line fuse jumper/tester that I fabricated) to fuse box pin pin 8 (the Red/Green side) and the running/slide lights all came on - I get the same results if I feed 12V to the pin 7 (Red side) as long as the fuse is in place, so I believe that the major portion of the loom is OK and the grounds exiting the various running/slide light lamps are sound.
 
Now the odd stuff you need to know: 
About a year ago some rats chewed through a Blue/Red wire on the engine compartment side of the firewall and I lost dim-dip/low-beams although running/side-lights were fine.  Note that I soldered in a new wire segment in and have had dip-dim/low-beams FINE for all this time.  Since this ONLY affected headlights, NOT sidelights too, I discount this as causative this time.
 
A year before that, I took the Mini to a PepBoys for the annual inspection and they couldn't get the blinkers/directionals/turn-signals to light - I popped the fuse in the box and reseated it and got those back, but I noticed my dash lights and right rear tail light (not brake light) were not illuminated.  As a quick fix to drive home I jumpered from the left taillight over to the right and that then illuminated (as did the dash lights).  After several repeat events of blinker-loss (which I discovered was also brake-lights-loss and reverse-lights-loss too ), I removed the entire fuse box and cleaned it up, testing the fuse box tabs for conductivity because I understand the rivets sometimes fail to conduct from the fuse to the tabs, What I found was corrosion inside the White and Green wire connectors and fixed that - NO issues with blinkers/brakes/reverse-lights since (although I still have that jumper in the boot that was illuminating the dash lights in place).
 
One other thing that might tie into this problem "timing-wise":
Recently - perhaps coincidentally, I noticed that my high-beam stalk control was no longer locking in the "pushed-away" position.  It still would flash when "pulled" and would also flashes when pushed, but it just wouldn't lock "on".  Now it only flashes when pulled.  Could this be part of my problem with the low-beams?  I understand the stalk "toggles" between the different headlights: pushed=high/centered=low/pulled=flash/high.
 
And now the super weird bit:
When I gave up trying to track the running/side-lights/dash-lights & dip-dim/low-beam problem down scientifically, I fell back on the "Well, what did you disturb while messing with the wiper repair?" tactic.  Over by the wiper motor there was a loom that is moved around a bit, but the loom tape was intact upon inspection and it wasn't really disturbed too much.  But over on the left-hand-side where the one corroded wiper wheel box was, I was really moving the foam on the bulkhead down and around a bit to get my hand and a wrench in there.  I noticed a rectangular flasher 9FL12V relay nestled in a cutout in the foam there and on a lark I just pushed it down thinking maybe I dislodged it and need to seat it again.  VOILA!  My running/side lights AND my dip-dim/low-beams miraculously began to work.  I couldn't see how a flasher unit would play a part in the main lights circuit, but as it was getting dark and raining by then so I simply I counted myself lucky and headed in for the night.
 
The following morning my luck had run out as neither my running/side lights nor dip-dim/low-beams worked anymore.  Plus, when I pulled that relay out of the foam to get a better look, I found its Purple/Orange terminal had experienced a meltdown.  Based on the condition and lack of any smell, it must have happened some long time ago - see pics (note the black thing under the relay is a car alarm horn that has been in place for 3 years - not a likely culprit here)
9FL12V-PU-O-Connector-melted.jpg  9FL12V-old-PU-O-melt-rust.JPG
 
It's a wonder that my flashers have been working like a champ.  It's possible that I temporarily grounded the P/O lead, but I do not see how grounding that circuit would contribute to the running/side-lights or dip-dim/low-beams circuit spring back to life. I also found it strange that the "out" wire was Green/White instead of Green/Pink stripe like the wiring diagrams call for.
 
See attached all the wiring diagrams I've been pouring over trying to suss this out - note the "relay" diagram is MY guess at what is going on inside that Pink relay...it could be completely wrong!
relay.png Indicator-Hazard Wiring MK4.png wiring.png wiring-2.png
 

Armed with the above information and looking at the pre-96 injection wiring diagrams (they just seem clearer to me) I made an assumption: my rear fog light switch should get power when the main rocker switch (in position #3 and via the Blue Wire) is supplying power to the stalk assembly...

 

I did the following test:

1. Toggled the rear fog switch - result: does not illuminate (this is expected because I know it behaved like this in the past when the main lights switch was not in "full on" position #3)

2. Switched the rocker into position 3 - result: still no running/side-lights, still no dip-dim/low-beams

3. Toggled the rear fog switch - result: does not illuminate (when I know that it did in the past)

4. Manipulated stalk push/rest/pull - result: rear fog switch still does not illuminate, Hig-beams flash on pull, do NOT illuminate otherwise - conclusion: I am NOT getting 12V on Blue "entry" wire on stalk switch

5. Toggled the rear fog switch while manipulating stalk push/rest/pull - result: rear fog still does not illuminate

6. Pulled the stalk to flash - result: High-beams light - conclusion: good direct power on the Purple feed in and good "flow" out the Blue/White wiring

 

Conclusion: no power is getting from Blue wire out of main rocker to other subsystems, certainly NOT stalk switch, possibly not to the Pink Relay either.

 

Next step: I have a bladed DP/ST switch that I just added jumpers to so I can plug it into the main rocker white plastic receptacle just to make sure it is not the stock switch somehow failing under load.

 

After that: I understand  that I can jumper the #2 & #8 pins (aka the 30 & 87 pins; aka the Blue/Brown to Blue/Red wires) of the Pink Relay to try and temporarily "bypass" it - see attached pic 
Pink-bypass.png 

 

But that won't answer the question as to why the running/side-light & dash illumination have failed, but it should at least rule Pinky out as causative for the low-beam issue

 

I'm pretty much at wit's end here as I'm not sure what to check/test next if the switch is not the problem...  
 
Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer help/suggestions/prayers!
Jim