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What is the Stopping Distance for drum brakes - Safety
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What is the Stopping Distance for drum brakes - Safety

    Created by: pocampousa
Orig. Posting Date User Name Edit Date Msg No.
Aug-07-2008 02:20PM kingsting   856453
Aug-07-2008 12:40PM zip-tph   856429
Aug-07-2008 11:58AM pocampousa   856423
Aug-07-2008 05:48AM QuickSilver   856359
Aug-06-2008 10:18PM Spitz   856340
Aug-06-2008 09:43PM charrison   856339
Aug-06-2008 03:48PM geoO   856290
Aug-06-2008 03:36PM declanm   856288
Aug-06-2008 03:06PM pocampousa   856283
Aug-06-2008 01:21PM geoO   856263
Aug-06-2008 11:38AM pocampousa   856229
Aug-06-2008 11:06AM bluedragon   856225
Aug-06-2008 10:53AM QuickSilver   856224
Aug-06-2008 10:50AM Elvisthepizzaman Edited: Aug-06-2008 10:51AM   856222
Aug-06-2008 10:13AM charrison Edited: Aug-06-2008 09:40PM   856211
Aug-06-2008 10:13AM Club Man   856210
Aug-06-2008 10:08AM Club Man   856208
Aug-06-2008 10:04AM pocampousa   856207
Aug-06-2008 10:04AM QuickSilver   856206
Aug-06-2008 10:02AM QuickSilver   856205

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 Posted: Aug-07-2008 02:20PM
kingsting
Total Posts: 279
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If your shoes are brand new, it may take a little more effort to stop the car too. The shoes need to conform to the shape of the drums. When I replaced mine, it took about 100 miles to get a real good feel out of the pedal.

 Posted: Aug-07-2008 12:40PM
zip-tph
Total Posts: 3937
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The front drum adjusters aren't really "screws" but more like a peg mounted on an eccentric. Maybe it's time to take a drum off and have a look-see inside to get an idea of what's going on. It would be a good time to check how much material is left on the shoes and check the diameter of the drum. If I remember, 7.063" diameter is the maximum... If someone has turned them beyond this, you might never get 'em adjusted.

 

 Posted: Aug-07-2008 11:58AM
pocampousa
Total Posts: 262
Last Post: 11-19-08
Member Since: 07-22-08

 
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Looks like the front brakes are the problem, the brake adjuster screw located on the upper part (the one hard to reach is very wear out) I has not able to move it that much, the lower one I was able to adjust it.

Can the upper adjuster screw be replace or fixed, how? Thanks

 Posted: Aug-07-2008 05:48AM
QuickSilver
Total Posts: 16391
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Matthew, you're all over the road (pun) again.

You start by ridiculing disc's "this idea of discs being a "must have" with a 1275 can be silly" and you close by cuddling them "if funds were readily available, I would purchase discs".

Not knocking you (though you'll take it like that no doubt as usual) but just confused.

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 Posted: Aug-06-2008 10:18PM
Spitz
Total Posts: 6620
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As I'm sure someone has said above...it's very important (besides everything being in top notch order) for the brakes to be adjusted properly.  If your backs aren't adjusted properly...you'll have excessive pedal travel.

Twin leading are great when in good order, they will stop you on a dime.  Disc brakes (7.5" or 8.4' are a better choice in the big picture.
I have had to emergency brake a few times (on drums), and avoided incident effectively.
Sure, I have to adjust, maintain them regularly to obtain this efficiency...part of being a MINI owner.
I solo race my car with drums on front.......a relatively short track mind you....and the brakes are more than adequate.  A longer course and I'm sure they would fade to shyte.
NA muscle cars used to use drums on front (with discs an option), and they are a little heavier than a classic MINI.
A 1275 with drums is fine also...this idea of discs being a "must have" with a 1275 can be silly.  You can get a 998 going as quick as a 1275......the cars weigh the same and need the same stopping power.  A 998 needs discs as much as a 1275....even an 850, all would benifit from the lack of regular adjustments needed.
If you're driving like a race car driver most the time, whether in a 998, 1275 or 850....then disc's will benefit you.  If you drive with some spirit (not alcohol) on occassion, drums (twin) are fine with a 1275 thru 850 etc.....

All that being said.....even though drums are fine...if funds were readily available, I would purchase discs.

A FATHER CARRIES PICTURES WHERE HIS MONEY USED TO BE 

1130cc, 12g295, SW5 cam, LCB, HIF38, CA spec.

 Posted: Aug-06-2008 09:43PM
charrison
Total Posts: 240
Last Post: 11-30-08
Member Since: 09-11-00

 
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What geoO means IS the handbrake cables.

Make sure the hydraulic and cable systems are both bedded in as you bleed and adjust.

 Posted: Aug-06-2008 03:48PM
geoO
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>>Thank you for the advice. When you said "Then grab all the cables on each side and yank them a couple times." What cables are you talking about, the handbrake cables?<<'

I'm not familiar enough with the models to know if your '73 had one cable or two to the rear shoes for the handbrake. First, adjust the rear brakes so that the wheels just turn. Then adjust the handbrake by tightening the cable(s) so that the handbrake locks up the rear wheels when engaged to the third click. THEN give the cable to each rear wheel (the cables actuate the handbrake - the real brakes are hydraulic) some good tugs, and then adjust the brakes again. You may be surprised at the additional adjustment you can make now that the shoes are seated, so that, again, the wheels just turn.

Then bleed the system if still necessary, and if your master cylinder and wheel cylinders are ok, you should have good solid brakes. My own "soft pedal" was solved with the handbrake adjustment and rear wheel adjustments described above.

 Posted: Aug-06-2008 03:36PM
declanm
Total Posts: 620
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the stopping distance for a Mini with drum brakes depends, almost entirely, on the thickness and coefficient of friction of the soles on the driver's shoes.  Since the driver will have to use his shoe for any serious stops, this factor is all-important.

 Posted: Aug-06-2008 03:06PM
pocampousa
Total Posts: 262
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Thank you for the advice. When you said "Then grab all the cables on each side and yank them a couple times." What cables are you talking about, the handbrake cables?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoO
If the pedal is soft, the first thing to do is adjust the REAR brakes so that the wheels just turn. Then grab all the cables on each side and yank them a couple times. Then check the adjustment of the rears again so that they just turn. At this point, you should also adjust the handbrake cables so that the brake is ON when the handle is on the third click. Then bleed the system, starting with wheel furthest from the master and proceeding. After all that, if you still have a soft pedal, you need to look at the brake master cylinder, and the brake wheel cylinders. You can hone them and kit them, or you can replace them. As said before, drums should give you stopping power close enough to disks, just not as much on multiple hard stops (such as in racing.) In normal driving, fixing all the above should give you predictably good stops until you can afford to convert to disks, which in the long run is a better set-up, not only for safety and stopping power, but lower maintenance.

 Posted: Aug-06-2008 01:21PM
geoO
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If the pedal is soft, the first thing to do is adjust the REAR brakes so that the wheels just turn. Then grab all the cables on each side and yank them a couple times. Then check the adjustment of the rears again so that they just turn. At this point, you should also adjust the handbrake cables so that the brake is ON when the handle is on the third click.

Then bleed the system, starting with wheel furthest from the master and proceeding. After all that, if you still have a soft pedal, you need to look at the brake master cylinder, and the brake wheel cylinders. You can hone them and kit them, or you can replace them.

As said before, drums should give you stopping power close enough to disks, just not as much on multiple hard stops (such as in racing.) In normal driving, fixing all the above should give you predictably good stops until you can afford to convert to disks, which in the long run is a better set-up, not only for safety and stopping power, but lower maintenance.

 Posted: Aug-06-2008 11:38AM
pocampousa
Total Posts: 262
Last Post: 11-19-08
Member Since: 07-22-08

 
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Do you think it may just mean that the pedal is not calibrate? and how to calibrate it?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by charrison
Pedal to the floor must mean air in the system.

 Posted: Aug-06-2008 11:06AM
bluedragon
Total Posts: 643
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Drum brakes are horrible in the wet. If you ever foresee driving in wet conditions on anything other than empty country roads, I'd get discs. Drum brakes are for originality only IMHO, to preserve a collectible Mini in its original state. Even then, if you drive it semi-regularly, I'd put discs on and just save the drum brake parts to be put back on if the car ends up on the show circuit, re-sold, etc.

DLY

 Posted: Aug-06-2008 10:53AM
QuickSilver
Total Posts: 16391
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Once a month I get Sir Lancelot of the floor and supported on jack stands. I then spend two days meandaring under there, tightening (if necessary, lubing, oiling, etc).

No room for second guess when you're elbows to a semi trucks hubcaps on the freeway at 90mph.

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 Posted: Aug-06-2008 10:50AM
 Edited:  Aug-06-2008 10:51AM
Elvisthepizzaman
Total Posts: 1347
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Interesting thread. This morning I began by doing some pre rally checks since im going to copper mtn for MINIs in the Mountains www.minisinthemountains.com on thursday and the first thing on my list was to check and adjust the rear drums. Sure enough they needed one quarter turn on both sides. While I had it up in the air I was looking over my rear tires and I found out why my right rear has been leaking air....A Nail!! argh so off to the tire shop. Now the stiff peddle is right at the top and my tire is fixed all because of brake maintenance. The last time I checked the rears it was about 6000km ago and I could not turn the wrench to the next flat without locking it up so thats probably the interval to be checking on them.

"Sorry, Jedi mind tricks don't work on retards"-Retarded Policeman mediocre films

 Posted: Aug-06-2008 10:13AM
 Edited:  Aug-06-2008 09:40PM
charrison
Total Posts: 240
Last Post: 11-30-08
Member Since: 09-11-00

 
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Pedal to the floor must mean air in the system.

If you have dual circuit brakes, the shuttle may have operated isolating on a circuit. This can happen if you're a bit heavy footed with the bleeding.

When you bleed, do you get a good flow out of all nipples ? If not see above, or maybe a collapsed flexy hose.

Minis can be a cow to bleed esp the back section. Where the brake pipe goes up and over the rear subframe, an air pocket often gets trapped. Sometimes you have to jack the back of the car as HIGH as poss to flush the air out. Stand it on its nose if you can.

 Posted: Aug-06-2008 10:13AM
Club Man
Total Posts: 5331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocampousa
The problem is that I installed new drums an brakes, calibrate the square pegs until the wheel did not move and then release it a little so the wheels could move. but when I brake, the pedal goes all the way down and takes some time to stop, it does not look the wheels. I don't know what is going on...

Check your brake hydraulics for trapped air. Minis are touchy when it comes to getting out all the air. If you press the brake sevreal times in a row, does it imrpove & begin to stop it's travel higher off the floor?

If all is adjusted correctly, including the emergency brake cable (3 to 4 clicks off the floor), then check the master cylinder for leaks or wear on the fork and clevis pin.

Make it idiot proof, and someone will make a better idiot....

 

 Posted: Aug-06-2008 10:08AM
Club Man
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Yes, trucks have drum brakes like Minis. And elephants also have noses like people. Just not the same....Mini shoes are small diameter and narrow.

With Mini drums -even twin leading- everything needs to be optimal to be anywhere near what discs can do with little/no maintenance. FADE is a big problem. So the faster you are going, the less is your ability to stop right at the end of your hoped-for decelleration. Don't even think you'll get two consecutive panic stops out of them - you'll be sadly disappointed. If you can afford discs, get them. Otherwise, replace your brake components with new stuff (everything) and keep them clean and adjusted snugly. And allow some extra room to stop......

Make it idiot proof, and someone will make a better idiot....

 

 Posted: Aug-06-2008 10:04AM
pocampousa
Total Posts: 262
Last Post: 11-19-08
Member Since: 07-22-08

 
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The problem is that I installed new drums an brakes, calibrate the square pegs until the wheel did not move and then release it a little so the wheels could move. but when I brake, the pedal goes all the way down and takes some time to stop, it does not look the wheels. I don't know what is going on...

 Posted: Aug-06-2008 10:04AM
QuickSilver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charrison
Here here Dean, A twin leading shoe set-up (ie post '64) with TOP quality shoes, properly adjusted, are just as good a discs for that first emergency stop. Drums get a bad name because they fade worse than discs 'cos they can't cool down so quickly. Big trucks have drums ! Easy to check with the wheels on - the front brake backplates will have two 3/8" square pegs sticking out - these are the adjusters (one is behind the steering arm, the other 180' opposite). The single leading shoe front brakes are identical to the rear brakes (ie one adjuster) but with the handbrake linkage added. But some pukka shoes !

They sure do, unfortunately. That they use drum brakes has to have other reasons that the best system.

They are all lined up and down cajon pass doing break checks and they don't typically haul ass like regular cars and called to make repeated emergency stops liek small cars.

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 Posted: Aug-06-2008 10:02AM
QuickSilver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedpilot

I can't tell you what the normal stopping distance is on a mini with front drum brakes but let me relate my experience. 

I had small disc brakes on my mini and for years had heard stories about Cooper S brakes being the ones to have over the smaller disc brakes and single & double leading front drum brakes because of their stopping power and the lack thereof with the other 3 brake systems.  But for years I adapted by leaving a lot of following room between me and the cars in front of me and keeping my speed down and a good braking distance normally.  Never really had a problem. Well I finally decided to do the Cooper S brake conversion (which was very easy BTW).  About 3 days later I was out having fun in the mini.  I looked down for a second and when I looked up the car in front of me was stopped dead in his tracks.  Well I stood on those new cooper s brakes and they stopped me although I am sure my arse end went side to side. With my old brakes I would have been inside the guys trunk. That very expensive cooper s brakes brake conversion paid for itself that day!! Now I just kick myself that I didn't do the conversion a long time earlier.

The first upgrade on any future classic of mine is disc brakes. Moeny absolutely well spent.

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