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 Posted: Apr 11, 2018 04:28AM
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CA
Darren: Any progress?

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Apr 5, 2018 09:16AM
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Alex, thank for pointing me in a better troubleshooting direction. The information on the Waxstat jet is very important, as is the correct starting point for setting the jets correctly. Your help is very appreciated at a time when I was trying to decide my next move. Darren.

 Posted: Apr 5, 2018 08:19AM
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GB

Derwood, have you cleaned the pugs, warmed the car up and taken it for a proper drive of >20 miles or so ?If not, and you've used the choke to start the engine, you plugs WILL be sooty...

The waxstat jet is a service item (24/36 months in daily use) and usually fails fully rich.  If you've done your basic checks & base setup and it's still running badly once fully warmed up, change this before messing about with needles which take tens of thousands of miles to wear a flat spot on the side.  The difference between an ADE and AAC isn't worth worrying about away from an emissions control environment but a worn and failed jet will trow your sideways off track.

Dan, your carbs are incorrectly adjusted - the fast idle screw should be virtually touching the fast idle cam.  Just because it came off your car like that doesn't mean it's correct.

Mike, Setting the jet level is PPA (**** poor advice).  Flush with the bridge is a starting point before lowering the jet two complete turns of the screw on an HIF or 12 flats (two complete turns) of the big nut on an HS series carb.  Some suggest 15 flats as a start point, but I've found that depends on how rich you want to run your engine - 12 is better.

 Posted: Apr 4, 2018 08:37PM
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+1 Mike. I agree ; the sooty plugs point to an engine that is too rich, and the carb is my focus. Thanks for the re-focus. During my last house move I lost about 2 or 3 thousand dollars worth of tools, so my buying a compression tester and ignition timing light was going to happen at some point. Now I want to satisfy my curiosity and see what my compression numbers are like, and I will need the timing light as I get closer to a good running engine I figure. Using those will use an hour tops I figure, and then , unless I have a compression problem, I’m tackling the carb. I’ve received some great tips through this thread - this is my first experience with SU’s, so I’m back on track. Thanks Mike. PS- after several years of gradual purchases I’ve got my tool collection in pretty good shape again. Quite a good feeling.

 Posted: Apr 4, 2018 04:24PM
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US
agree to disagree and don't turn this post into a pissing match, And Derwood, don't keep fueling the fire with BC.  It will just continue
the argument. 

Move on. and let's hear what's working in terms of fixes.

BTW,  sooty plugs is too much fuel.

That's where I'd start.

 Posted: Apr 4, 2018 01:24PM
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Thanks for the great ideas and thoughts gang. Much appreciated. Cheers, Durwood.

 Posted: Apr 4, 2018 12:23PM
 Edited:  Apr 5, 2018 05:47AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mur
As per page ten of a Mini MK II handbook I have next to my desk, published in 1967 by BMC, part number AKD 4992.

The first 1/4 in (6mm) approximately of movement (A) opens the throttle slightly without affecting the mixture giving a fast engine idling speed.
The comment that offended your sensibilities has been struck out. Thanks for the edification.
It must be nice to have a Mini with a handbook!

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Apr 4, 2018 11:00AM
mur
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As per page ten of a Mini MK II handbook I have next to my desk, published in 1967 by BMC, part number AKD 4992.

The first 1/4 in (6mm) approximately of movement (A) opens the throttle slightly without affecting the mixture giving a fast engine idling speed.

 Posted: Apr 4, 2018 10:45AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derwood
QUOTE BUY WEREWOLF “derwood.. WRONG again.. the oil dumped at MME 03 was about a quart at MOST.. sure NOT gallons and gallons.. scott and I cleaned up.. and dirty deb sure did NOT spend $300 to clean it up.. later b c” Bill, the way you use large print is to try to embarrass people. Please stop it. Regardless of how much oil you put into the ground, it was a very stupid thing to do. So you talk down to people but you are far from perfect. If you haven’t got anything that applies to my questions, please don’t comment. If you really want to help people, do it politely. Period.BTW- “ WRONG again “ implies that I am always wrong. Well, you are the one who is wrong. Dan, thank you for explaining where to start the jet adjustment. I do know from my Haynes manual that mur is correct. The first position ( detente ) on the choke pull only increases idle, not richness. Also, b c started the pi$$ing match. He provoked me and I responded. That won’t change. When I am provoked, I respond - even if it tries your patience. Malsal, I am buying both a compression tester and timing light today. Those two items will be checked before I touch the carb. Regarding the gearbox, it’s like any kind of troubleshooting...you start by testing relavent ideas, then start eliminating possibilities. That’s what I did with the transmission, and now it is fixed. As far as finding the needle I need, there are two possible ones, because ‘89 was a changeover year, and the two types of needles comes from page 4A*2 of the Haynes manual. You can look and see that it is either an AAC or an ADE. I ordered both. You may think ordering two is a waste of time and money, but I don’t want to receive the wrong one ( 50-50 chance ) and then have to wait anouther week for the correct one. Sorry if I have disappointed you. Thank you all for your continued help. Darren.
I am not disappointed and my patience is fine Darren but you need to check everything not just timing and compression before you look at the carb. FWIW i can only respond to what you write as i am not there working on the car.
As i said before the Jap spec cars may have used a different needle the Haynes book is only a guide you should have checked what needle you have first you may have wasted money on 2 needles. Normally the jet will wear prior to the needle wearing out.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: Apr 4, 2018 09:35AM
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CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitz

Perhaps the carb you're looking at Dan has the cam rotated incorrectly?
First pull of choke lever rotates the cam to increase idle without dropping the jet on an HS.  Pulling more drops the jet increasing fuel delivery

The HS4 I have has the throttle and choke levers on the radiator side of the carb (opposite to the exploded diagram 13.6b  in Haynes on page 4A.12). All choke lever components are apparently as factory installed (the dirt came later!). The choke cam lever has "AUD2359" stamped on it (part 58 in Haynes but mirror image). It interlocks with a secondary "pick up" lever on the same shaft that is connected to the jet push rod (both parts numbered '50' in Haynes but the mirror image). As the cam lever rotates, it contacts and starts to move the pick up lever - at the point where the cam end just comes in line with the fast idle screw. It does not touch the screw until it ha rotated a bit more (equivalent to about 1 screw diameter, which would correspond to the arrow location on the HIF mechanism).

I can see where it could be adjusted either way - if the fast idle screw was set to contact the cam at its very tip (which on mine isn't the case) it could increase idle speed minutely before shifting the jet. As mine is set (coming off the car) and the screw set to engage the cam in from its end, the jet would begin to shift first.


.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Apr 4, 2018 08:27AM
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CA

Perhaps the carb you're looking at Dan has the cam rotated incorrectly?
First pull of choke lever rotates the cam to increase idle without dropping the jet on an HS.  Pulling more drops the jet increasing fuel delivery

A long shot here Derwood but simple to check.

In the past I had a classic MINI that wouldn't run worth shyte after installing an engine.  Chased gremlins like you are.

Finally discovered I had left off the grounding strap!
If it's not there or loose, or not grounding well, the car will run like crap, and your choke and throttle cables will be pretty hot.

probably over on right side of engine, clutch area

 

"Everybody should own a MINI at some point, or you are incomplete as a human being" - James May

"WET COOPER", Partsguy1 (Terry Snell of Penticton BC ) - Could you send the money for the unpaid parts and court fees.
Ordered so by a Judge

 

 

 

 Posted: Apr 4, 2018 08:13AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derwood

Dan, thank you for explaining where to start the jet adjustment. I do know from my Haynes manual that mur is correct. The first position ( detente ) on the choke pull only increases idle, not richness.
Darren, Where in your Haynes does it give that description? I assume you have the 1969 to 1996 version of the manual.
Please give page number section number (e.g. 4A.9  Section 11) and which paragraphs you are reading. Thanks.
Neither my choke cable or any of the 3 carbs I possess have any positions or "detent" but all have smooth, continuous movement.

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Apr 4, 2018 07:49AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mur
Dan-why do you go on the internet and tell people about technical items that you do not understand?

The choke increases the idle speed first and then lowers the jet to enrich the mixture.
Sorry Mur, I disagree. I am sitting here with a with a SU HS4 (waxstat if it matters)  in my hands and twiddling the choke mechanism. As it rotates, the choke lever begins to push down on the rod to the jet assembly at the time the leading edge of the cam begins to come near the fast-idle screw. At that point there is still a small space between the cam and the screw because the contact point should be slightly along the cam for the reason stated. Once it does make contact, the throttle and jet are adjusted simultaneously.

Now, I have a HIF 44 in hand. It does not pull a jet but opens an enriching channel to introduce extra fuel. The choke lever on this carb rotates about 20 degrees before the cam comes in contact with the fast idle screw. This cam does have the indicator arrow about 1 screw diameter up from the beginning of the cam. Total rotation of the lever is about 90 degrees.

The principle should be the same - full choke (or nearly) to increase mixture for cold weather operation, for which increased throttle opening (not just faster idle speed) is required. As the engine warms, the mixture and consequently increased throttle may be reduced. At its lowest setting, when fast idle is not necessary but slight enrichment is useful, the choke mechanism allows the driver to feather the mixture. If you were to look at a different type of carb that has a choke butterfly and fixed jets, you would see that the choke butterfly restricts air supply, forcing the carb to suck harder on the fuel. A similar linkage would allow the choke mechanism to increase throttle position in the same way.

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Apr 4, 2018 07:29AM
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QUOTE BUY WEREWOLF “derwood.. WRONG again.. the oil dumped at MME 03 was about a quart at MOST.. sure NOT gallons and gallons.. scott and I cleaned up.. and dirty deb sure did NOT spend $300 to clean it up.. later b c”

Bill, the way you use large print is to try to embarrass people. Please stop it. Regardless of how much oil you put into the ground, it was a very stupid thing to do. So you talk down to people but you are far from perfect. If you haven’t got anything that applies to my questions, please don’t comment. If you really want to help people, do it politely. Period.BTW- “ WRONG again “ implies that I am always wrong. Well, you are the one who is wrong.

Dan, thank you for explaining where to start the jet adjustment. I do know from my Haynes manual that mur is correct. The first position ( detente ) on the choke pull only increases idle, not richness. Also, b c started the pi$$ing match. He provoked me and I responded. That won’t change. When I am provoked, I respond - even if it tries your patience.

Malsal, I am buying both a compression tester and timing light today. Those two items will be checked before I touch the carb. Regarding the gearbox, it’s like any kind of troubleshooting...you start by testing relavent ideas, then start eliminating possibilities. That’s what I did with the transmission, and now it is fixed. As far as finding the needle I need, there are two possible ones, because ‘89 was a changeover year, and the two types of needles comes from page 4A*2 of the Haynes manual. You can look and see that it is either an AAC or an ADE. I ordered both. You may think ordering two is a waste of time and money, but I don’t want to receive the wrong one ( 50-50 chance ) and then have to wait anouther week for the correct one. Sorry if I have disappointed you.

Thank you all for your continued help. Darren.

 Posted: Apr 4, 2018 07:10AM
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CA
Getting back to the basics of the problem, it is running rich and has poor throttle response and power. Bearing in mind it is a 998, there won't be lots of power like a Honda.

Running rich:
If it was running well before shipment and has sat, the first suspect would be excessive fuel coming into the carb. If the float valve isn't working the bowl will fill up and raw gas will pour out the top of the main jet because the top of the bowl is higher than the tip of the jet. So, clean and inspect the bowl and inlet valve and jet. Don't assume the body of the jet is OK - there could be dirt above it and there should be a screen above it too. Next, check the float condition and level and adjust it. If your adjustment leaves the maximum fill level slightly low, it is better than having it high - you'd only experience a stumble while cornering hard or on a long, full throttle run (not likely on PEI!) and that can be corrected later.

After cleaning the bowl (and possibly the main jet and its tiny hose) test drive. Depending on how it runs and if it still is rich, then consider adjusting the mixture. As I wrote in another thread, this car apparently ran well in Lethbridge at a much higher altitude, and is presumably tuned for that. It may be rich or lean for PEI at sea level.

Once you are satisfied the carb is tuned as good as you can get it, only then begin to check the spark. Begin with checking the points and dwell (or point gap). Then check the timing, remembering to disconnect the vacuum advance and cap the line at the carb and setting the timing to spec at the specified rpm. The timing may have been retarded for altitude to prevent pinging there.

It is unlikely the valve adjustment has gone out since the vendor drove it happily. It certainly wouldn't go far enough out for a significant power loss.

Darren: Have you done anything about providing heat to the intake manifold yet? An icing carb or intake will cause the problems you describe.

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Apr 4, 2018 06:58AM
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Darren i posted on another of your threads to check everything else timing, valve clearances, plug gaps, point gaps (if fitted), vacuum advance before you touch the carb. Also unless your needle is bent they last forever.
You could have the timing too retarded or the vac advance not working there could be lots of issues with parts out of spec and any amount of carb repairs or tuning is not going to solve that. 

Look at it like the gearbox issue. You were thinking along the lines you needed a new gearbox or the linkage was bent and i along with others told you to check the short shift that was installed and if need be change it out for a factory one and now with a simple repair it is shifting fine.

BTW did you ever find out what needle you have currently? if not how did you decide which one to order? 

You are wasting your time and money if you do not do the repairs in the correct order or order the correct parts.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: Apr 4, 2018 06:49AM
mur
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Dan-why do you go on the internet and tell people about technical items that you do not understand?

The choke increases the idle speed first and then lowers the jet to enrich the mixture.

 Posted: Apr 4, 2018 06:39AM
 Edited:  Apr 4, 2018 12:20PM
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CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minimike1...
...
After that, I'd open the carb top, pull out the piston, and look at the ring/jet in the center bottom of the carb. crank the jet up to be flush with the carb casting. It will be obvious when you open it and peek down there.  Re assemble it and drive it.
...
...

Drive it.
What Mike suggested leaves out an important part. The top of the jet (the ring he refers to ) should not be flush with the bridge of the carb. That is the starting point for presetting a new jet or rebuilt carb. It probably won't run with it all the way up.
The correct procedure, when you do not know at what level it will allow the car to run is to adjust it flush, the lower it about 1/8" (3mm), which should allow the engine to start. possibly with some choke. Once you get it warmed up and are able to completely release the choke, you adjust the jet, turning the nut one flat at a time and testing to see if it runs better or worse. It may need a few adjustments just to get it running without choke.

As reported, the choke mechanism pulls the jet downward to richen the mixture. The first part of the choke knob pull lowers the jet without increasing rpm. Beyond a certain point, a cam on the choke mechanism engages an adjustment screw on the throttle lever to open the throttle and increase rpm. When the choke is fully released, the screw should not touch the choke cam at all. If you look closely at the cam, there may be an arrow stamped into it. To adjust the screw properly, you apply enough choke so that the arrow points directly at the screw, then adjust the screw so it just touches the cam. If there is no arrow, rotate the cam so the beginning edge of the cam is past the screw about one diameter of the screw.

Derwood: nevermind starting a pi$$ing match with Bill... you're wasting other peoples' time and patience.

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Apr 4, 2018 06:39AM
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Hi jedduh01

Yes, I’ve got fresh premium gas in the Mini. I had to cut ( hacksaw ) the old locking cap off because none of my keys fitted it, but it was anouther trouble out of the way. Slowly getting there. Thanks for your help. Darren

PS- our premium gas is pretty poor. 91 octane is the best that is available anywhere on PEI. I always buy regular because I figure it is used the most, thus is likely the freshest. I put cleaner additive in the tank about every second fill up on my daily driver and will do/have done the same with my Mini.

 Posted: Apr 4, 2018 06:37AM
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derwood.. WRONG again.. the oil dumped at MME 03 was about a quart at MOST.. sure NOT gallons and gallons.. scott and I cleaned up.. and dirty deb sure did NOT spend $300 to clean it up.. later b c

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