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 Posted: Aug 24, 2018 05:32PM
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chuck. I heard from the BMC dealer in Philly about six months ago. his dad imported 40 moke in 67 and he still has one at Ocean Reef Club in Key Largo Fla.. has only 2500  miles.. he also bought new Choke from me this year.. later bc

 Posted: Aug 24, 2018 01:45PM
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US
BC, I've heard the same story, but don't know how true it is. If a BMC dealership wanted some new Minis, MGs, etc., the story goes that they could have those cars as long as they took a Moke, too.

 Posted: Aug 24, 2018 01:18PM
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chuck.  I had heard EVER BMC dealer in the USA had to take a  moke.?? this true in 64-67..?? fyi.. jimohio. my email is [email protected]  I will give the complaint phone number for Cali DMV enforcement there in Oxnard, Cali.. so you go after ML..  later bc  

 Posted: Aug 24, 2018 01:12PM
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As mentioned, Mokes in the U.S., because they didn't sell well, often were licensed long after they were built. Mine, built in 1965 is licensed as a 1967. I can remember driving by a BMC sales place in 1969 when going to and from work. They had a Moke in the window that I really wanted, but I couldn't afford the $1500 they were asking for their new Moke built in 1966.

Oh, and for those new to the Chassis Numbers, the "L" under discussion means Left Hand Drive.

 Posted: Aug 24, 2018 10:49AM
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bodger..  I will like to see this.. from BMHT..  but my money is STILL on this being shell from Portugal and it being a  RU PAUL edition..a RE VIN..    onetim.. depends on the state..  here in NC.. DMV  calls me from time to time from Raleigh NC to ask questions  about Foreign titles.. and old Brit cars.. later bc

 Posted: Aug 24, 2018 09:02AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Mini
Malsal, what do you think about the $900 HIF44?
3 x what it is worth and no use for an 850 anyway. I suspect this Moke was built with a big bore 1380 or something along those lines and got swapped out with the 850 before it was sold.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: Aug 24, 2018 07:53AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malsal
Just a few clarifications.
Portuguese Mokes did have three opening panels on the right side on some models and two on others.
The hinged battery door was introduced in 1988 not all Portuguese Mokes had them.
Portuguese Mokes did in fact have the early UK number plate lights fitted to the rear bumper.
The whole left side pontoon has no doors and a larger side fill petrol tank which was fitted to Portuguese Mokes.
Malsal - I stand corrected and you're right that Portuguese Mokes did use the English style number plate lamp.  Only it was not attached to the rear panel using the 14A 8300 adapter as I was trying to point out.  The English left pontoon is relatively easy to convert to a Portuguese style if you're restoring a car at the same time.

After we bought the 17 Catalina wrecks from Larry back in 2004, I went to BHIMT to research all of them.

 

We have both AAB1L 845366 and AAB1L 845381.  The first one was built on 7th February 1966 and despatched on 25th February whilst the second (later) one was built EARLIER on the 2nd February and despatched on 16th February.  So I would expect that this Moke AAB1L 845364 to have been built within a day or two of these.  So it puts it well and truly in the Mk1 English Moke period.  The first twin wiper Moke was introduced on 14th April 1966.  It's a misconception that twin wipers were introduced with the Mk2 English Moke in early September 1967.  In fact it was nearly 18 months earlier.

 

Maybe this Moke took a while to be sold after arriving in the US and that's why it has a 1967 title  But it is certainly not the first time I have come across English Mokes with Austin chassis numbers and Morris badging and vice versa  So I'm not overly concerned about that.  The chassis plate looks genuine albeit after having paint remover on it.

 

Bill - Mokes were made in batches of 50 or less and I have never come across a standard Mini build in the middle of a batch.  Since I researched a Catalina Moke two numbers away from this one, I think I would have noticed that.  In addition, once those chassis numbers were allocated, BMC wouldn't have simply not used a chassis number.  So I am 100% confident that the chassis number AAB1L 845364 does exist and was one destined for the USA.  I am very happy to check for you when I next visit.  As said elsewhere, BMIHT do make mistakes.

 

It does look as if there has been some skulduggery around the HIF44 carburettor.  Maybe it was subsequently changed and the seller conveniently forgot to mention that.  Similar exaggerations seem to happen all the time on other well known internet auction sites too.

 

 

 Posted: Aug 24, 2018 07:21AM
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FWIW, I have received 2 BMHT Certificates that were incorrect and admittedly so.

To quote Richard Bacchus from email correspondence: 
"I do apologise, the dates are a typing error that I failed to spot when checking"
and
"Regarding the technical specification, here I have to confess that I'm only as good as the information published. In the published technical specification for the 1961 model year Mini of all variants (UK model years effectively run from August to August)..."


In short, the records are hand-written and subject to human error when they were produced and also when they are read/interpreted and then again when printed.  While the Heritage Certificate is a valuable and interesting piece of information, I'm pretty sure it is only as reliable as one wants it to be. 

Oh, and as I type this, I recalled another interesting email exchange. There was no engine number recorded in the archives for one particular car and when I received the cert it did not include the engine number. When I queried this blank spot on the cert they asked what engine number was in the car that I possessed and that they would "correct the certificate with this new information" and "If you could destroy the old one when it arrives I'd be very grateful." ["it" in this case refers to the "corrected" certificate". Once the new one arrived I was to destroy the old one]

 Posted: Aug 24, 2018 07:15AM
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Malsal, what do you think about the $900 HIF44?

"Retired:  No Job, No Money, Wife and I!  Will travel anywhere for Minis"

[email protected]

 Posted: Aug 24, 2018 07:11AM
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So assuming your in a state where you could get away with registering it, and knowing it's a bitsa, what's the rough right price?

 Posted: Aug 24, 2018 07:09AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodger

I do not deny that the bodyshell has very many Portuguese modifications including seats, wing extensions, fuel tank, rear trunk and roll cage to name but a few.

 

However all these items have been added to a genuine English shell.  Here in the UK we have very many Portuguese Mokes and at M Parts, we have worked on and restored very many of them during the past 15 years.  The rear trunk, fuel tank, side panels, roll bar and all the other modifications are available from us to buy new.  We have even done some of these modifications to English Mokes ourselves.  But just because these Portuguese-style modifications have been made, it doesn't mean that the Moke was manufactured in Portugal. 

 

Someone certainly spent a lot of money on  the car.   I do not doubt your comments about the engine but there are just too many inconsistencies for it to be a Portuguese shell. 

You need to look at the small details and here are some more of them in addition to those that I posted earlier:

 

  1. 1.  The holes in the bulkhead for the English style single wiper motor still remain and yet the Moke uses a later twin wiper rack? Why would Jet Motors drill these out and not use them?
  2. 2.  The bonnet is an English bonnet (without the later ribs) and its hinges are the shorter style unlike the Portuguese style. The hinge brackets on the bulkhead are also in the correct position for an English shell.  They were moved up in 1967 so the wiper arms wouldn't foul the bonnet as it opened.  If you use an English bonnet with a Portuguese shell, then the bonnet leaves a big gap between the bonnet and wings towards the back.
  3. 3.  Portuguese Mokes did not come with a opening centre pannier door on the RH side panel.
  4. 4.  Portuguese Mokes came with a hinging battery door cover rather than one which is attached with four bolts.
  5. 5.  Portuguese Mokes did not come with a top battery inspection cover and more importantly, did not come with the scalloped / shaped front edge of the rear wing where it meets the pannier top. Please note that this is visible on both rear wings.
  6. 6.  Portuguese Mokes did not come with the braiding on the top of the front panel.
  7. 7.  The inner flitch panel is of English style. The Portuguese style is shaped differently below the radiator.
  8. 8.  The holes to hold the rear seat clamps through the rear load platform have been made very crudely and on Portuguese Mokes this is much neater.
  9. 9.  This Moke only has four flutes in the rear panel whereas Portuguese Mokes had six flutes across the entire width of the rear panel.  You can even see the holes in the rear panel where the licence plate used to be fitted.  Portuguese Mokes had their licence plates fitted to the rear bumper.  You can also see where the English style number plate lamp was fitted and which was not fitted to Portuguese Mokes.  Again, whey would Jet Motors drill these holes and then not use them?

 

I have looked up the records from Sherry Chandler's NAMMR and can confirm that four other Mokes very close to this Moke all have the "L" in their chassis number.  So I think it very likely that they were made in the same batch.  Those Mokes are AAB1L845353, AAB1L845362, AAB1L845368 and AAB1L845373.  I have already been to look at the BMIHT records maybe 5 or 6 times and can easily look up this Moke when I next go.

 

Bill - Your colourful posts are always enjoyable to read but  I thought the term was STUPIC not STUPID?

Just a few clarifications.
Portuguese Mokes did have three opening panels on the right side on some models and two on others.
The hinged battery door was introduced in 1988 not all Portuguese Mokes had them.
Portuguese Mokes did in fact have the early UK number plate lights fitted to the rear bumper.
The whole left side pontoon has no doors and a larger side fill petrol tank which was fitted to Portuguese Mokes.

All this work done to this "UK" Moke and not a single bill for converting a UK shell to a Portuguese shell ?
The only thing shell wise that seemed odd to me was the fixed grille front panel but that could have been changed.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: Aug 24, 2018 06:59AM
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So it's a "bitsa"? Little bit of this, a little bit of that. FWIW, (since you're in the Moke Business) a 1967 Moke shell would also have the higher hinge points like OZ, Cagiva, and Portuguese Mokes. Anyway, as you pointed out, this Moke shell with low hinge points and small loop hinges date the bulkhead to 1966 or earlier. It still doesn't explain why a 1967 Morris has a VIN that starts with A-A (Austin VIN), regardless of what shell it's on. Oh yeah, what's your take on the invoice for a brand new HIF44 and K&N cone filter $900 on the invoice? That's the big LIE of this listing. I'm just glad I wasn't the one charged for that. Who knows what else was untruthful in this listing?

"Retired:  No Job, No Money, Wife and I!  Will travel anywhere for Minis"

[email protected]

 Posted: Aug 24, 2018 06:53AM
 Edited:  Aug 24, 2018 06:58AM
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bodger.. according to BMHT vin # AA B1L. 845.364 does NOT exist.. and seller said Cali/Org. titles has Morris. NOT austin on it.. morris moke would  have MMB1 to start.. the vin later bc

 Posted: Aug 24, 2018 05:53AM
 Edited:  Aug 24, 2018 06:37AM
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I do not deny that the bodyshell has very many Portuguese modifications including seats, wing extensions, fuel tank, rear trunk and roll cage to name but a few.

 

However all these items have been added to a genuine English shell.  Here in the UK we have very many Portuguese Mokes and at M Parts, we have worked on and restored very many of them during the past 15 years.  The rear trunk, fuel tank, side panels, roll bar and all the other modifications are available from us to buy new.  We have even done some of these modifications to English Mokes ourselves.  But just because these Portuguese-style modifications have been made, it doesn't mean that the Moke was manufactured in Portugal. 

 

Someone certainly spent a lot of money on  the car.   I do not doubt your comments about the engine but there are just too many inconsistencies for it to be a Portuguese shell. 

You need to look at the small details and here are some more of them in addition to those that I posted earlier:

 

  1. 1.  The holes in the bulkhead for the English style single wiper motor still remain and yet the Moke uses a later twin wiper rack? Why would Jet Motors drill these out and not use them?
  2. 2.  The bonnet is an English bonnet (without the later ribs) and its hinges are the shorter style unlike the Portuguese style. The hinge brackets on the bulkhead are also in the correct position for an English shell.  They were moved up in 1967 so the wiper arms wouldn't foul the bonnet as it opened.  If you use an English bonnet with a Portuguese shell, then the bonnet leaves a big gap between the bonnet and wings towards the back.
  3. 3.  Portuguese Mokes did not come with a opening centre pannier door on the RH side panel.
  4. 4.  Portuguese Mokes came with a hinging battery door cover rather than one which is attached with four bolts.
  5. 5.  Portuguese Mokes did not come with a top battery inspection cover and more importantly, did not come with the scalloped / shaped front edge of the rear wing where it meets the pannier top. Please note that this is visible on both rear wings.
  6. 6.  Portuguese Mokes did not come with the braiding on the top of the front panel.
  7. 7.  The inner flitch panel is of English style. The Portuguese style is shaped differently below the radiator.
  8. 8.  The holes to hold the rear seat clamps through the rear load platform have been made very crudely and on Portuguese Mokes this is much neater.
  9. 9.  This Moke only has four flutes in the rear panel whereas Portuguese Mokes had six flutes across the entire width of the rear panel.  You can even see the holes in the rear panel where the licence plate used to be fitted.  Portuguese Mokes had their licence plates fitted to the rear bumper.  You can also see where the English style number plate lamp was fitted and which was not fitted to Portuguese Mokes.  Again, whey would Jet Motors drill these holes and then not use them?

 

I have looked up the records from Sherry Chandler's NAMMR and can confirm that four other Mokes very close to this Moke all have the "L" in their chassis number.  So I think it very likely that they were made in the same batch.  Those Mokes are AAB1L845353, AAB1L845362, AAB1L845368 and AAB1L845373.  I have already been to look at the BMIHT records maybe 5 or 6 times and can easily look up this Moke when I next go.

 

Bill - Your colourful posts are always enjoyable to read but  I thought the term was STUPIC not STUPID?

 Posted: Aug 24, 2018 04:29AM
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US
When you look at the invoice and see a BFM needle for the carb you know that it was not for the engine currently in the Moke. That needle would only work in a 1275 or larger engine. Of course you would not put an HIF44 on an 850 regardless of needle choice. Penske probably kept the big engine.

 Posted: Aug 24, 2018 03:51AM
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Image Gallery
Started looking a little closer at things and OH, THE THINGS YOU DISCOVER. First off, it is absolutely a PORTUGUESE shell. Everything indicates that it is. Both side panels, gas tank cover, wing/fender extensions, LOCKING REAR TRUNK, etc, etc. BUT WAIT!!! The real issue is in the paperwork. Close examination of the invoice tells me that whomever was billed for this was at least overcharged. I would not take a car here if they are so blatantly overcharging the customer. Check out one of the several page 1's of the itemized invoice. (see photos) Everything on this page is BOGUS! The client was charged $849 for an HIF44 carb. " brand new, not rebuilt" but the photos clearly show a HS2 (1 1/4" SU). Who would think of putting a HIF44 on an 850? Further to that, JET Motors somehow stuffed a K&N Cone filter in the original 850 air cleaner. Who'd a thunk it? One other item that caught my eye was the "Bars Stop Leak" product for leaking head gasket. REALLY, it's in there. If someone is paying this kind of money for work, why not just put a new head gasket on? Afterall, they are paying nearly $900 for a carb that simply ain't there. This is shameful! I know I certainly wouldn't take anything to them if this is how they do business!

"Retired:  No Job, No Money, Wife and I!  Will travel anywhere for Minis"

[email protected]

 Posted: Aug 23, 2018 08:30PM
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bodger..  Georgia cracker  posted the reply from Archives  from BMHT on Bat..   you would have to be a right Dozzy STUPID Poser  to argue with BMHT.. this is a shell from Portugal . and now it comes it is titled a MORRIS.. ?instead of Austin.. what planet to you live on?/ Zenon?? later bc

 Posted: Aug 23, 2018 05:53PM
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dr mini.. thanks. I had forgot about that.. we both know this is a MOKE from Portugal  NOT the UK.. later bc

 Posted: Aug 23, 2018 02:58PM
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So, a 1967 UK Moke had a sidemounted gas tank/filler? Me thinks not!

"Retired:  No Job, No Money, Wife and I!  Will travel anywhere for Minis"

[email protected]

 Posted: Aug 23, 2018 02:50PM
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chuck.. sorry.. phone ran and someone at the door. at same time. and guess it printed..  corrected.. what archives said at BMHT there was NO L in this moke vin number..   it is AA B1/ 845364

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