OT. red moke on Bat today
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Oh, and for those new to the Chassis Numbers, the "L" under discussion means Left Hand Drive.
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If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.
Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.
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Just a few clarifications.
Portuguese Mokes did have three opening panels on the right side on some models and two on others.
The hinged battery door was introduced in 1988 not all Portuguese Mokes had them.
Portuguese Mokes did in fact have the early UK number plate lights fitted to the rear bumper.
The whole left side pontoon has no doors and a larger side fill petrol tank which was fitted to Portuguese Mokes.
After we bought the 17 Catalina wrecks from Larry back in 2004, I went to BHIMT to research all of them.
We have both AAB1L 845366 and AAB1L 845381. The first one was built on 7th February 1966 and despatched on 25th February whilst the second (later) one was built EARLIER on the 2nd February and despatched on 16th February. So I would expect that this Moke AAB1L 845364 to have been built within a day or two of these. So it puts it well and truly in the Mk1 English Moke period. The first twin wiper Moke was introduced on 14th April 1966. It's a misconception that twin wipers were introduced with the Mk2 English Moke in early September 1967. In fact it was nearly 18 months earlier.
Maybe this Moke took a while to be sold after arriving in the US and that's why it has a 1967 title But it is certainly not the first time I have come across English Mokes with Austin chassis numbers and Morris badging and vice versa So I'm not overly concerned about that. The chassis plate looks genuine albeit after having paint remover on it.
Bill - Mokes were made in batches of 50 or less and I have never come across a standard Mini build in the middle of a batch. Since I researched a Catalina Moke two numbers away from this one, I think I would have noticed that. In addition, once those chassis numbers were allocated, BMC wouldn't have simply not used a chassis number. So I am 100% confident that the chassis number AAB1L 845364 does exist and was one destined for the USA. I am very happy to check for you when I next visit. As said elsewhere, BMIHT do make mistakes.
It does look as if there has been some skulduggery around the HIF44 carburettor. Maybe it was subsequently changed and the seller conveniently forgot to mention that. Similar exaggerations seem to happen all the time on other well known internet auction sites too.
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To quote Richard Bacchus from email correspondence:
"I do apologise, the dates are a typing error that I failed to spot when checking"
and
"Regarding the technical specification, here I have to confess that I'm only as good as the information published. In the published technical specification for the 1961 model year Mini of all variants (UK model years effectively run from August to August)..."
In short, the records are hand-written and subject to human error when they were produced and also when they are read/interpreted and then again when printed. While the Heritage Certificate is a valuable and interesting piece of information, I'm pretty sure it is only as reliable as one wants it to be.
Oh, and as I type this, I recalled another interesting email exchange. There was no engine number recorded in the archives for one particular car and when I received the cert it did not include the engine number. When I queried this blank spot on the cert they asked what engine number was in the car that I possessed and that they would "correct the certificate with this new information" and "If you could destroy the old one when it arrives I'd be very grateful." ["it" in this case refers to the "corrected" certificate". Once the new one arrived I was to destroy the old one]
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"Retired: No Job, No Money, Wife and I! Will travel anywhere for Minis"
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I do not deny that the bodyshell has very many Portuguese modifications including seats, wing extensions, fuel tank, rear trunk and roll cage to name but a few.
However all these items have been added to a genuine English shell. Here in the UK we have very many Portuguese Mokes and at M Parts, we have worked on and restored very many of them during the past 15 years. The rear trunk, fuel tank, side panels, roll bar and all the other modifications are available from us to buy new. We have even done some of these modifications to English Mokes ourselves. But just because these Portuguese-style modifications have been made, it doesn't mean that the Moke was manufactured in Portugal.
Someone certainly spent a lot of money on the car. I do not doubt your comments about the engine but there are just too many inconsistencies for it to be a Portuguese shell.
You need to look at the small details and here are some more of them in addition to those that I posted earlier:
- 1. The holes in the bulkhead for the English style single wiper motor still remain and yet the Moke uses a later twin wiper rack? Why would Jet Motors drill these out and not use them?
- 2. The bonnet is an English bonnet (without the later ribs) and its hinges are the shorter style unlike the Portuguese style. The hinge brackets on the bulkhead are also in the correct position for an English shell. They were moved up in 1967 so the wiper arms wouldn't foul the bonnet as it opened. If you use an English bonnet with a Portuguese shell, then the bonnet leaves a big gap between the bonnet and wings towards the back.
- 3. Portuguese Mokes did not come with a opening centre pannier door on the RH side panel.
- 4. Portuguese Mokes came with a hinging battery door cover rather than one which is attached with four bolts.
- 5. Portuguese Mokes did not come with a top battery inspection cover and more importantly, did not come with the scalloped / shaped front edge of the rear wing where it meets the pannier top. Please note that this is visible on both rear wings.
- 6. Portuguese Mokes did not come with the braiding on the top of the front panel.
- 7. The inner flitch panel is of English style. The Portuguese style is shaped differently below the radiator.
- 8. The holes to hold the rear seat clamps through the rear load platform have been made very crudely and on Portuguese Mokes this is much neater.
- 9. This Moke only has four flutes in the rear panel whereas Portuguese Mokes had six flutes across the entire width of the rear panel. You can even see the holes in the rear panel where the licence plate used to be fitted. Portuguese Mokes had their licence plates fitted to the rear bumper. You can also see where the English style number plate lamp was fitted and which was not fitted to Portuguese Mokes. Again, whey would Jet Motors drill these holes and then not use them?
I have looked up the records from Sherry Chandler's NAMMR and can confirm that four other Mokes very close to this Moke all have the "L" in their chassis number. So I think it very likely that they were made in the same batch. Those Mokes are AAB1L845353, AAB1L845362, AAB1L845368 and AAB1L845373. I have already been to look at the BMIHT records maybe 5 or 6 times and can easily look up this Moke when I next go.
Bill - Your colourful posts are always enjoyable to read but I thought the term was STUPIC not STUPID?
Portuguese Mokes did have three opening panels on the right side on some models and two on others.
The hinged battery door was introduced in 1988 not all Portuguese Mokes had them.
Portuguese Mokes did in fact have the early UK number plate lights fitted to the rear bumper.
The whole left side pontoon has no doors and a larger side fill petrol tank which was fitted to Portuguese Mokes.
All this work done to this "UK" Moke and not a single bill for converting a UK shell to a Portuguese shell ?
The only thing shell wise that seemed odd to me was the fixed grille front panel but that could have been changed.
If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.
Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.
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"Retired: No Job, No Money, Wife and I! Will travel anywhere for Minis"
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I do not deny that the bodyshell has very many Portuguese modifications including seats, wing extensions, fuel tank, rear trunk and roll cage to name but a few.
However all these items have been added to a genuine English shell. Here in the UK we have very many Portuguese Mokes and at M Parts, we have worked on and restored very many of them during the past 15 years. The rear trunk, fuel tank, side panels, roll bar and all the other modifications are available from us to buy new. We have even done some of these modifications to English Mokes ourselves. But just because these Portuguese-style modifications have been made, it doesn't mean that the Moke was manufactured in Portugal.
Someone certainly spent a lot of money on the car. I do not doubt your comments about the engine but there are just too many inconsistencies for it to be a Portuguese shell.
You need to look at the small details and here are some more of them in addition to those that I posted earlier:
- 1. The holes in the bulkhead for the English style single wiper motor still remain and yet the Moke uses a later twin wiper rack? Why would Jet Motors drill these out and not use them?
- 2. The bonnet is an English bonnet (without the later ribs) and its hinges are the shorter style unlike the Portuguese style. The hinge brackets on the bulkhead are also in the correct position for an English shell. They were moved up in 1967 so the wiper arms wouldn't foul the bonnet as it opened. If you use an English bonnet with a Portuguese shell, then the bonnet leaves a big gap between the bonnet and wings towards the back.
- 3. Portuguese Mokes did not come with a opening centre pannier door on the RH side panel.
- 4. Portuguese Mokes came with a hinging battery door cover rather than one which is attached with four bolts.
- 5. Portuguese Mokes did not come with a top battery inspection cover and more importantly, did not come with the scalloped / shaped front edge of the rear wing where it meets the pannier top. Please note that this is visible on both rear wings.
- 6. Portuguese Mokes did not come with the braiding on the top of the front panel.
- 7. The inner flitch panel is of English style. The Portuguese style is shaped differently below the radiator.
- 8. The holes to hold the rear seat clamps through the rear load platform have been made very crudely and on Portuguese Mokes this is much neater.
- 9. This Moke only has four flutes in the rear panel whereas Portuguese Mokes had six flutes across the entire width of the rear panel. You can even see the holes in the rear panel where the licence plate used to be fitted. Portuguese Mokes had their licence plates fitted to the rear bumper. You can also see where the English style number plate lamp was fitted and which was not fitted to Portuguese Mokes. Again, whey would Jet Motors drill these holes and then not use them?
I have looked up the records from Sherry Chandler's NAMMR and can confirm that four other Mokes very close to this Moke all have the "L" in their chassis number. So I think it very likely that they were made in the same batch. Those Mokes are AAB1L845353, AAB1L845362, AAB1L845368 and AAB1L845373. I have already been to look at the BMIHT records maybe 5 or 6 times and can easily look up this Moke when I next go.
Bill - Your colourful posts are always enjoyable to read but I thought the term was STUPIC not STUPID?
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"Retired: No Job, No Money, Wife and I! Will travel anywhere for Minis"
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"Retired: No Job, No Money, Wife and I! Will travel anywhere for Minis"
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