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 Posted: Jul 18, 2019 02:23PM
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+1 to Doug’s comment, can’t see where anyone is picking on you. I always find it best to be humble when seeking help. Wiring issues can be very difficult to sort, good luck.

 Posted: Jul 18, 2019 01:11PM
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I don't believe I have criticized you and I am sure the other posters have not.  I'm sorry if you feel you have been picked on.

Doug L.
 Posted: Jul 18, 2019 11:00AM
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I get what you’re saying, however, when ignition switched to start the 12v comes from the solenoid to feed the coil temporarily until engine fires, Hense this connection from the solenoid to coil on diagrams, & process of elimination proves this, I can get a spark & bypassing, by all the advice I’ve been given which I appreciate, yet it has been wired as seen & checked by guys local, must be faulty distributor in my opinion because everything checks out ok, I was coming to this site for advice not criticism, I ain’t stupid, just out of touch from years ago!! Thanks again! :)

 Posted: Jul 18, 2019 09:42AM
 Edited:  Jul 18, 2019 09:50AM
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The brown wire does not go to coil (+).  Brown wires not fused and "hot" all the time.  You will not be able to turn the engine off with the brown wire connected to coil (+). 

With the similar Pertronix (Aldon) ignition, if you leave the ignition module powered up with the engine not running the module will overheat and fail within minutes.  I don't know if AccuSpark has the same problem but it may.  You may have burned out the PowerSpark.

I don't see where you connected the black wire to the coil.  The black wire goes to coil (-).

You have two (2) white/black wires on coil (-).  One goes to the tach.  The other is not used when you have an electronic ignition fitted.  For now, remove BOTH white/black wires from the coil.  Figure out which is for the tach later.

Rather than repeat the tests I posted earlier, visit YouTube.  Look for the Moss motors videos.  The first is linked below.  Watch Ignition System Testing (parts 1 and 2) and Ignition Coil How to Test
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=moss+ignition+system+testing

Doug L.
 Posted: Jul 18, 2019 08:30AM
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Hi, the brown crimped cable runs from coil + to the solenoid, the rest of the brown cables are within the loom, the distributor is as described in previous posts- ds45 power spark, the white cable is ignition switch, the red & black is distributor + & - feed, the black/white is tacho & distributor - ( on photo) Rich

 Posted: Jul 18, 2019 07:42AM
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I have looked at the pictures.  I have questions.
1) You said this is a new loom.  However, your picture of the coil shows several apparently home-crimped terminals.  Who made that portion of the loom?
2) You have a brown wire on coil (+).  Where does the other end of that wire go?
3) You have an electronic ignition with red and black wires.  I assume the red wire is shown on coil (+).  Where do you have the black wire connected?
4) What distributor is in the engine?

Doug L.
 Posted: Jul 18, 2019 06:58AM
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https://share.icloud.com/photos/092X-00HF9nRDTlqWlSCSONtw

 Posted: Jul 18, 2019 06:19AM
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Right, I’ve carried out the test mentioned above, with key in run position and coil earthed I’m getting 8.92v, so guessing it’s a ballast loom, which I have put the other coil requiring the ballast loom, still no spark! Here’s some photos, well I’m trying to upload!! :/

 Posted: Jul 17, 2019 05:22PM
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I had no idea that the 123 could operate on such low voltage.  Thanks for explaining.

I believe both 123 and CSI have pre-programmed, switch selectable dizzies like you have.  I believe they both offer versions that are USB programmable.  At least one of those manufacturers offers a blue tooth programmable version.

I had never considered the zero advance during starting.  That is absolutely brilliant.

Doug L.
 Posted: Jul 17, 2019 12:09PM
 Edited:  Jul 17, 2019 12:31PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dklawson
Dan, are you saying you KNOW the 123 is running on 9V and continue to use it that way?  Why?
Because the installation instructions that came with it says (I had to check the file!):
- Operating voltage 4.0 to 15.0 volts, negative earth only.
(It is intended to run with ballasted or unballasted ignition systems. Its internal processes probably run on low "computer" voltage of 4 volts or so.)

It also says:
- RPM range 600 to 7000 rpm
- Temperature -30 to 85 degrees Celsius
- Coil: stock coil or "High Energy" coil, primary resistance not below 1 ohm
- vacuum advance 0 to 14 degrees from 5 to 10 inch Hg
- dwell microprocessor controlled, depending on coil current
- current timeout after +/- 1 second. If the engine is not running, the current is switched off to prevent overheating of the coil
- spark balance software controlled, better than half a degree crankshaft

... not that I remember any of this. I did have to look it up. My 123 is among the first generation for A+ Mini engines. The dizzy that came with my engine (no clear identification of that it was) did not seem to belong to the 1275 Metro lump and had worn bearings resulting in dubious timing. Not knowing what my engine should have for a dizzy, or in the way of an appropriate timing curve, I opted for a 123. Once the engine "told" me which of the 16 curves it liked best (Marcel Chichak's advice on his website - try several curves to see which one performs best), I set it and have forgotten it.

One thing I do like about it is that between 0 and 500 rpm, it provides 0 (zero ) advance, which makes starting the engine very easy. Once the engine is firing and rpm climbs above 500, the selected curve is switched on. 

As I said, mine is an early version - I understand the current versions available are programmable, so one could make their own curve specific to their engine's build...  far beyond me!

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Jul 17, 2019 05:29AM
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Dan, are you saying you KNOW the 123 is running on 9V and continue to use it that way?  Why?

Doug L.
 Posted: Jul 17, 2019 04:41AM
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Ian: an excellent description of what is supposed to happen.
Re electronics and ballast voltage issue -my 123 ignition runs quite happily on the reduced voltage, approx 9V.

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Jul 16, 2019 05:15PM
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Here Here Malsal.....

But getting back to Rich's issue...

I get very confused (most of the time  but especially when we start talking about yellow wires with purple traces (or whatever).  I think it helps to know what outcome we're looking for rather than how it might be provided.

The basic (points) Mini system is very simple.  Assuming a negative earth system (just swap the coil terminals for + earth) ... A wire connects the ignition switch "on" terminal to the + terminal of the coil.  Another wire connects to - coil terminal to the dizzy.. which is earthed through the dizzy body to the block....  

When you turn the ignition on (and the points are closed) power flows to + coil terminal, through the primary coil (which lives inside the "coil") out the - coil terminal and to earth through the dizzy body (via the coil and closed points).  When the points open the current collapses which induces a current in the secondary coil which flows out the coil king lead to the dizzy cap, through the rotor arm and via a plug lead to plug, across the plug gap (which generates a spark) and to earth....

Electronic ignitions get a bit more complicated as they (at least the ones I've used) need a separate 12V (or thereabouts) - and earth - to drive their switching mechanism. As I see it, the one real benefit of electronic ignitions is their capability to vary the dwell - i.e. period the switch is open  - and hence the period the coil can charge independently of revs....

Ballasted systems are also more complex as they (usually??) use a 12V supply when the key is in the "start" position and revert to a 6-9 V supply when the key returns to the "run" position.

So, instead of worrying where the yellow wire is connected, worry about whether the + terminal is seeing 12V... and so on.

Cheers, Ian

PS this seems much more complicated when reduced to text..... and I won't be offended to be told this is all bollocks....

 Posted: Jul 16, 2019 12:21PM
 Edited:  Jul 17, 2019 06:50AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dklawson
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richyt
1) hi everyone! I have a 1991 cooper, new loom which hasn’t a white/pink black/yellow cable near ignition/coil area so assuming it’s non ballast,

2) I have new coil distributor leads plugs starter on a 1275 A series engine.

3) White ignition cable to (+) with a black/white cable also from (+) running down to feed from starter solenoid, then a cable from (+) to ds45 distributor with electronic points.  

4) a black/white cable from (-) to tacho & cable from (-) to distributor.


Thanks Malcolm.  I wish there was a lot more posting by a lot of people on this board.  Over the past year it seems to have almost died.

I assume the car is new to you.  Do you have a service manual for it yet?  If not, that should be your first investment.  It really is a must-have item.  Another must-have item is a multimeter.  Buy an auto-ranging model to suit your budget.  It will be handy with the Mini and (more often than you would expect) helpful around the house.

I don't know a lot about the later cars so hopefully others will post.

1) Don't be looking for a black/yellow wire.  If there were one present it would be for an electronic speedometer never used from the factory on Minis.  White/pink would be a ballast/resistor wire.  If there were a ballast bypass wire present it would be white/yellow.  Do the following to determine if you have a resistor wire buried in the loom. 

Disconnect ALL wires form the coil except the white wire which should be on coil (+).  Make a short jumper wire and connect it to coil (-).  Connect your multimeter between coil (+) and earth/ground on the engine somewhere (I suggest the dizzy housing).  Turn the key to the run position.  Hold the other end of the jumper wire to ground/earth.  If the meter reads 12V or more, you have a standard ignition loom (no ballast).  If you measure between 6V and 9V you have a ballast ignition.  Wiring electronic ignitions is a bit more involved on ballast ignitions.  We'll discuss that later if necessary.  Post back with your voltage measurement results.

2) I assume it is too late how to warn you but you should ONLY change ONE thing at a time to simplify troubleshooting.  Post a picture or two of the dizzy with the spark plug wires and their routings clearly shown.  Then remove the dizzy cap and post a picture of what you have done with the electronic ignition install. 

3) This sounds like a bit of a mess.  As Malcolm said, on a negative ground car the white/black wires NEVER go on coil (+) .  For now disconnect them both.  Later we will help you determine which white/black wire is for the points and which is for the tachometer.

4) As above, this is unclear since you have already placed a white/black on coil (+).  For now remove all the white/black wire as mentioned above and... post pictures of your coil wiring please.  Either make sure the wire colors are obvious or add notes to the picture if the colors are unclear.  

You said this has an electronic ignition.  It is unclear if you have it installed or in a box.  Is it factory or aftermarket?  If it is aftermarket and installed, does it have red and black wires exiting the distributor?  Read on and carry out the test below if the answer is yes.  Stop and post pictures if the answer is no.

You said you have no spark.  The steps below just test whether the coil is getting power and working.  As I suggested in item 1) above, disconnect all but the white wire from coil (+).  Take the king lead out of the center of the dizzy cap but leave it attached to the coil.  Take the jumper you made for item 1) above and place it on coil (-).  Turn the key to the run position.  Hold the king lead with a clean dry towel so that the terminal on its free end is about 1/4 to 1/8 inch off the a cylinder head stud/nut.  While holding the king lead still with a gap to the stud/nut, TAP (not hold... tap) the free end of the jumper wire to the dizzy housing.  Every time you LIFT the jumper wire away from contact you should see a spark jump from the king lead.  Let us know what you observe.
Yes i agree it has lately it all seemed to start going down hill with the Troll and we lost a lot of good knowledgeable folks who posted often here.
I wish Don would split the board between new and old Minis, it seems as these new MINI's are getting older they are having lots of issues and posting more and as i know nothing about them i have to search past them looking for Classic posts sometimes also reading them as they are not categorized.
Oh well rant over as they say Don's sandbox his rules.






If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: Jul 16, 2019 07:49AM
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Hi guys, thanks for getting back to me, I’ll be having a tinker with it again in the next few days, in the meantime here’s more information if this helps!
there is NO white/pink cable or black/yellow.
the non ballast coil is a viper VCS 12v 3 ohm (new)
i have a Haynes manual although there’s 2 diagrams that relate to the year my mini yet both different! This is my 11th mini but the last full rebuild from scratch like this one was nearly 20 years ago!! Minis haven’t changed that much but I’ve slept forgot & drank lots of beer in 20 years!!! The dizzy is a new power spark 1275 45D D4-75
i am using a fluke 10 multimeter & have a timing probe.
hope this is of some use!!
be back to you soon! Thanks again!
rich

 Posted: Jul 15, 2019 03:20PM
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US
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richyt
1) hi everyone! I have a 1991 cooper, new loom which hasn’t a white/pink black/yellow cable near ignition/coil area so assuming it’s non ballast,

2) I have new coil distributor leads plugs starter on a 1275 A series engine.

3) White ignition cable to (+) with a black/white cable also from (+) running down to feed from starter solenoid, then a cable from (+) to ds45 distributor with electronic points.  

4) a black/white cable from (-) to tacho & cable from (-) to distributor.


Thanks Malcolm.  I wish there was a lot more posting by a lot of people on this board.  Over the past year it seems to have almost died.

I assume the car is new to you.  Do you have a service manual for it yet?  If not, that should be your first investment.  It really is a must-have item.  Another must-have item is a multimeter.  Buy an auto-ranging model to suit your budget.  It will be handy with the Mini and (more often than you would expect) helpful around the house.

I don't know a lot about the later cars so hopefully others will post.

1) Don't be looking for a black/yellow wire.  If there were one present it would be for an electronic speedometer never used from the factory on Minis.  White/pink would be a ballast/resistor wire.  If there were a ballast bypass wire present it would be white/yellow.  Do the following to determine if you have a resistor wire buried in the loom. 

Disconnect ALL wires form the coil except the white wire which should be on coil (+).  Make a short jumper wire and connect it to coil (-).  Connect your multimeter between coil (+) and earth/ground on the engine somewhere (I suggest the dizzy housing).  Turn the key to the run position.  Hold the other end of the jumper wire to ground/earth.  If the meter reads 12V or more, you have a standard ignition loom (no ballast).  If you measure between 6V and 9V you have a ballast ignition.  Wiring electronic ignitions is a bit more involved on ballast ignitions.  We'll discuss that later if necessary.  Post back with your voltage measurement results.

2) I assume it is too late how to warn you but you should ONLY change ONE thing at a time to simplify troubleshooting.  Post a picture or two of the dizzy with the spark plug wires and their routings clearly shown.  Then remove the dizzy cap and post a picture of what you have done with the electronic ignition install. 

3) This sounds like a bit of a mess.  As Malcolm said, on a negative ground car the white/black wires NEVER go on coil (+) .  For now disconnect them both.  Later we will help you determine which white/black wire is for the points and which is for the tachometer.

4) As above, this is unclear since you have already placed a white/black on coil (+).  For now remove all the white/black wire as mentioned above and... post pictures of your coil wiring please.  Either make sure the wire colors are obvious or add notes to the picture if the colors are unclear.  

You said this has an electronic ignition.  It is unclear if you have it installed or in a box.  Is it factory or aftermarket?  If it is aftermarket and installed, does it have red and black wires exiting the distributor?  Read on and carry out the test below if the answer is yes.  Stop and post pictures if the answer is no.

You said you have no spark.  The steps below just test whether the coil is getting power and working.  As I suggested in item 1) above, disconnect all but the white wire from coil (+).  Take the king lead out of the center of the dizzy cap but leave it attached to the coil.  Take the jumper you made for item 1) above and place it on coil (-).  Turn the key to the run position.  Hold the king lead with a clean dry towel so that the terminal on its free end is about 1/4 to 1/8 inch off the a cylinder head stud/nut.  While holding the king lead still with a gap to the stud/nut, TAP (not hold... tap) the free end of the jumper wire to the dizzy housing.  Every time you LIFT the jumper wire away from contact you should see a spark jump from the king lead.  Let us know what you observe.

Doug L.
 Posted: Jul 15, 2019 02:39PM
 Edited:  Jul 16, 2019 12:13PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richyt
hi everyone! I have a 1991 cooper, new loom which hasn’t a white/pink black/yellow cable near ignition/coil area so assuming it’s non ballast, I have new coil distributor leads plugs starter on a 1275 A series engine. White ignition cable to (+) with a black/white cable also from (+) running down to feed from starter solenoid, then a cable from (+) to ds45 distributor with electronic points.
a black/white cable from (-) to tacho & cable from (-) to distributor.
i have 12v at coil & distributor yet still no spark, with all the above disconnected I earthed the coil & tapped a 12v to (+) & got a spark from HT lead- so coil is good! Have 12v also from solenoid when cranking engine over yet still no spark! I also temporarily bypassed the whole ignition side of wiring loom to eliminate loom fault but still no spark! Please help!!
many thanks 
mr frustrated!!!! 
"new loom which hasn't a white/pink black/yellow cable near ignition coil area"? Has or Hasn't?

White/pink is ballasted, white /black is non ballasted you need a full 12 volts for electronic distributors and the correct coil 3 ohms i think.

No need to earth the coil.

By by passing everything you should have power at the distributor if you do either the electronic module is bad and or the rotor is bad.

If you have the old set of points install them and see if it fires.

Maybe Doug Lawson the electrical guru can chime in.




If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: Jul 15, 2019 12:33PM
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hi everyone! I have a 1991 cooper, new loom which hasn’t a white/pink black/yellow cable near ignition/coil area so assuming it’s non ballast, I have new coil distributor leads plugs starter on a 1275 A series engine. White ignition cable to (+) with a black/white cable also from (+) running down to feed from starter solenoid, then a cable from (+) to ds45 distributor with electronic points.
a black/white cable from (-) to tacho & cable from (-) to distributor.
i have 12v at coil & distributor yet still no spark, with all the above disconnected I earthed the coil & tapped a 12v to (+) & got a spark from HT lead- so coil is good! Have 12v also from solenoid when cranking engine over yet still no spark! I also temporarily bypassed the whole ignition side of wiring loom to eliminate loom fault but still no spark! Please help!!
many thanks 
mr frustrated!!!!