Yeah, the fact that most mini users change their oil after 3000 or 6000 miles probably means that any possible oil degradation that could be going on (by the action of the transmission gears, or by the final drive) would not have gotten very far so that's why it doesn't end up causing people problems.

Regarding the ZDDP though, flat tappet engines do need it, and it can sure be annoyingly difficult to confirm whether it is in an oil or not. These days, it is a pretty well known phenomenon, and modern cars need a much smaller dose, so if it does NOT say 0.12% ZDDP right on the label, plain as day, then you can assume that it probably doesn't have enough.

Norm

Good thoughts and good points mascherk. This thread reminds me of another oil related thread along the lines of "do not use synthetic oil in your Mini's" then a bunch of people post on the thread who do use it with no problems or issues.

Thanks to everyone who responded to my question. It does appear that ZDDP has become a thing of automotive "common knowledge". I remember reading some reports on V8 rebuilds having cams go flat shortly after rebuilds about 8 or 10 years ago. The cam manufacturers suggested it was a change in ZDDP in oil during break in. Since then I have never seen a report of break in problems with an A/A+ engine. It makes me wonder...

Another thing that makes me wonder is the idea that higher than normal film shear strength is required in the Mini gearbox while older gear boxes in rear wheel drive cars often used regular engine oil and it was rarely changed. Later this was changed to automatic transmission fluid in rear wheel drive gearboxes.

I think that the fact that the Mini includes the final drive in the gearbox causes concern that there is a need for extreme pressure or anti-wear additives similar to what you would see in a hypoid ring and pinion final drive. The difference is that the Mini uses a mild helical cut final drive that has only a little sliding action. Just my thoughts.

Regards,

Kelley

The Mini gearbox needs an oil additive package that which gives the oil a high shear film strength.  The shearing effect of the gears will reduce a regular oil's viscosity quickly, you might get about 1000 miles before the viscosity is half of its original value.  Motorcycle oils are made to accommodate combined engine/gearbox requirements, so they have good shear resistance, but usually they also have wet clutch friction modifiers that we don't want.

So start by studying motorcycle oils, then go from there.  Here is a web site with way too much information //motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html about oils in general and motorcycle oils in particular.

But remember, you have to study the labels every time you buy oil.  Oil manufacturers come up with a product name, and then they keep using that product name and logo for years and years, but they can change the oil formulation at any time.  So the bottles on the shelf today may look just like the product you bought years ago, but it is not the same.  

The last time I bought oil,  I stood there in Walmart reading all the labels until I found a good commercial diesel engine oil which exceeded the JASO-MA motorcycle specification,  I chose Shell Rotella T.

I'd say, just send your oil out to be analyzed. If the analysis shows that there's a lot of wear based on the elements in the oil, then you can take measures. If not, nothing to worry about.

I suppose, if the engine has the removable tappet covers, one could remove those and take a look at the lobes or tappet/followers to see if there's pitting or uneven wear? 

 

Damn, now I'm more confused then ever.

So I rebuilt my 998 in about 2003... I don't recall what oil the builder put in for me to run in, but after that i was using Valvoline 20w50... am I going to have issues? I'd be interested in hearing from a pro A series builder... (perhaps some of you are, i don't know)...

The rumor is that a lot of the late model MPI cams and lifters showed very high wear and degradation. This didn't make sense since the metallurgy of the MPI cams was as high if not higher than anything in the history of the A-series. Originally, high-lift cams, rockers and excessive spring pressures were thought to be causes.

But, at the same time, many aftermarket cam manufacturers around the mid 2000's on many other makes and models also reported very high wear rates, and eventually lack of zinc was fingered as the culprit. So thinking is leaning towards this as the cause.

I think though that a Mini would need to put on a lot of long, hard miles before a problem became apparent. This would have affected the MPI's most of all, because as "new" cars, they would have been driven more often as daily drivers and grinders. I don't know that most current Mini owners put enough miles on their wheels to really see a problem.

 

 

 

Good question mascherk. From what i understand it is more cruicial to have the ZDDP in a freshly re built or new engine with flat tappets, once the engine is broken in i have heard it is not an issue and regular 20w 50 will suffice but maybe others know different. I have not heard of anyone having problems with any engines running a regular 20w 50 without the ZDDP but maybe there are cases of it.

Could someone show me some evidence that lack of ZDDP has ever caused a problem in a Mini engine? I know there are a lot of warnings and reasons why we should be seeing problems (mostly from suppliers) but I have never seen or heard of anyone having a problem.

Thanks,

Kelley

+1

Valvoline XLD Classic 20W/50 here in Oz. All year round- our winters are not a real one. And we get to 40°C in summer.
10W30 is too thin for a Mini here.... whether manual, or auto.

Redline 20/50 synthetic here. Though, the oil viscosity ratings really only govern the behavior of the oils at cold/hot temps respectively. A complicated subject, but I'm thinking about going to a synthetic 10/30 for the winter and only use 20/50 if I expect hot driving conditions in the summer. A "heavier" oil may not get to optimal operating temperature in cold weather, and that's not a good thing.

 

That's the only quality 20/50 with ZDDP readily available here..  CT and Walmart.
The combined gearbox/engine needs 20/50 ( obviously thinner if you drive in winter )

I know that the Brad Penn1 oil is a must for a friend who restores old Triumph and BSA motorcycles here in my hometown. He swears by it. He told me to use that, but I want to see what else is out there that people are using

Spitz;

You use the Castrol Motorcycle 20/50?? Anything else good that would be aquired at Canadian Tire? My other question was going to be: Why 20W50?? Why don't we use a lighter weight, like 10W30 etc..? Whats the ideal for the A series?

I've read that in other posts on this subject in the past... must be a regional thing. Here on the east coast / mid-Atlantic every Advance and Autozone carries it. 

Second vote for brad penn. 15-40 or 20-50.

A search here should turn up additional info on this topic. The search engines have plenty of otpions, but pay attention to the age of the info.

VR1 isn't readily available unfortunately

VR1 20w50. Readily available at the chain stores and reasomnable money. Has .13% zddp. I'm sure someone else could tell you how much zddp is necessary.