Thanks for the suggestion MiniMike - we won't need to drill after all, but the end cover did need to come out and a product called "Rost Off Max Ice" and heat had to be employed to break the rust bonds.

I cannot take any credit though... It was the artistry of Buddy over at Barnett Auto who made it happen (in Sunnyside, NY just 20 minutes from Manhattan).

He did some beautiful work!  He even sandblasted the exterior of the end cover and the slave cylinder mounting plate, repainting the later with a black ceramic hydraulic fluid and heat resistant brake caliper paint - see here.

And boy did the arm and plunger need replacing - I'm pretty shocked that I could shift at all!

Here's a few pictures that show how badly worn the clutch arm was (there's a triangular chunk out of it), the plunger (there's a divot in the side of the cylinderical socket) and the clevis pin (it's actually notched from wear).  Look how far off center from the plunger socket the clutch arm was.

And the bearing was so dry and greaseless, when you spun it... it rattled.

I would highly recommend Barnett Auto - Joe Curto was spot on!

And if anyone starts to have issues shifting into first and reverse - check the condition of your clutch arm and plunger!

Can you get a drill in there?  I'd drill it out. Start with 1/8" bit and go larger slow speed, with oil to cool the bit. Also make sure you center punch the clevis pin to locate first drill.  Drill it out to almost the exact size and it will likely bind on the bit and you can push it out manually.

If not, remove cover and drill it on a bench set up.  BTW,  the bold at 8 oclock on the clutch cover is a bitch to remove and commonly not re installed. It's not needed and makes future service easier.

 

If a picture is worth a thousand words... then I'll wager that two videos are worth a million!

What may have been "very difficult to explain in words" comes through clearly in your videos Alex.

Again - VERY much appreciated!

(Gorgeous paint job on your Mini BTW - and I love the "Pop!" of the adonized pieces against the engine color too)

Thank you again Alex, these are really helpful and reassuring posts.

I've already taken the breather out (as well as the washer bottle) to facilitate access and I figured that removing the SC (but leaving it plumbed so it doesn't need to be re-bled) would be a necessary step in getting the cover out of the engine bay (I've also got the servo assist brakes assembly hovering over all this stuff, but didn't want to have to pull that, so "whew!").  We'll probably take the SC's mounting plate off the cover first too - thanks for confirming the "short list" of what to pull/loosen.

I can contribute that your hunch is right when you you say "I'm going to say that the thrust bearing won't fall out, even if the rubber band snaps, until the cover is off.  I think the gap between the end of the plunger and the front of the clutch isn't big enough.  Only one way to find out..." How can I confirm?  Because one of my Mini Mentors, Tom Abbe, emailed me last night: "there are 'trick' parts - so look out for a rubber o-ring holding the bearing to the spigot [plunger]- again it does[n't] do any actual work, only retains the part during assembly after which it [the bearing] is captive"

Tom also seemed to concur with you about the bush/plunger/hole tolerances too: "[there is] no bush - the bearing area is so large and the (radial) load so small it should never be a concern - don't worry - it's OK. Coat it with good moly grease like Valvoline 633 or CVJ grease on assembly. [another 'trick' part is] the gray plastic (probably nylon mixed with moly lube) sleeve that holds the thrust sleeve over the flywheel hub."

I really appreciate all the terrific input Alex - hopefully we're building a useful thread for the next person confronted with this task!

Jim

The plunger isn't a tight fit for sure, and can appear to be a bit wiggly and will also twist round.
If I remember (it's 0430 and I still have three hours to go before home time and bed), I'll try and video one of mine.

I've had a few mate like this, and even the wonders of PB Blaster won't shift them.
Heat from a blowtorch (hot spanner) and a few love taps from a BFH will see  them part company.  Don't worry about damaging the cover though, as they are pretty resilient and lots of us have spares (I don't actually know how many I have, it's probably dozens).
Taking the cover off involves undoing the engine mount (2x 5/16" UNF nuts & bolts), jacking the end of the engine slightly (¼" or so) which doesn't require the removal of the engien steadies or exhaust, then removing the ring of 5/16" UNC bolts about the end cover.  You may well find access easier with the top engine steady and breather removed, as well as the slave cylinder.
Once it's off, freeing the clevis pin is a doddle.

I'm going to say that the thrust bearing won't fall out, even if the rubber band snaps, until the cover is off.  I think the gap between the end of the plunger and the front of the clutch isn't big enough.  Only one way to find out...

Thank you for confirming the lack of any bushing Alex, I suspected that.  To answer your other questions re: the diagnosis - here goes:

I have established that the steel clevis pin has galvanize-rusted onto the two "wings" of the aluminium clutch housing end cover.  My daughter had actuated the clutch while I watched the pin remain dead solid and so the clutch arm is pivoting freely on the pin.  I had also clamped the head of the pin in a pair of vise-grips and it simply would not move up or down, nor rotate at all.

The large clevis pin is currently in the "normal" position, head up, cotter pin down.  I do like your suggestion, Alex, of placing it in opposite way round for future servicing - thanks for that.

So it is just the motor mount that needs releasing?  I thought for sure the two engine steadys might need to be released as well...?

The SC pushrod and top clevis pin are brand new (with the new slave cylinder I put in over the last winter when the old SC seals failed), and we are definitely going to replace the plunger, clevis pin and arm, as well as the bearing and o-ring, rather than do a half job.

In my own attempt to free the large pivot clevis, I had ground off the split pin because it was rusted into place and I soaked the whole assembly in PB Blaster Penetrating Catalyst three times over three nights - but still couldn't hammer free the pin (but then I also didn't take massive swings at it since I didn't want the break off the housing's "wings").  I had not tried the emery cloth yet, but after two weekends, a couple of hours each, and not even being able to spin the pin, let alone move it up through the holes in the housing, I got read the edict by the wife: "find a mechanic and stop wasting time on this".

You mention a "hot spanner"... Do you mean applying heat from a torch to free the clevis?  I had considered that, but I didn't want to do it as I felt it might damage the existing rubber o-ring rendering the car undriveable if the bearing then fell into the housing... but now that the car has been driven to the shop and once the end cover is off, that's certainly an option.

That said, I do believe you are right that in the end it will need an impact to shift the clevis pin out, so we'll likely do that with the housing end cover off and out of the car where there is more freedom of movement and where the "fragile" bits can be protected.

Thanks so much for the detailed and thoughtful input Alex!

Can anyone else comment on how loose the plunger should feel, or on whether the end cover often wears away, making the hole too loose?

Jim

There is no bush in any end cover, and apart from a few unimportant differences for the Metro, any cover will fit any vintage of engine.
The plunger isn't loose, and isn't tight - it just sort of fits and slides.  Very difficult to explain in words on the screen.

Have you established which bit is stuck in what ?
If the clevis pin is stuck in the housing, it requires a different type of attack to if it is stuck in the arm.  Have a (glamorous) assistant press the clutch while you watch the arm.  If the pin rotated with the arm then those two components are glued together.  If the arm rotates and the pin stays still then the pin is stuck in the cover.

Which way up is the pin ?
Normal practice for a bolt or pin is to have it pointing downwards with the nut or split pin underneath - if the fixing comes loose the bolt nominally remains in place.  This is one of the few fixings I recommend putting in the "wrong" way up as if it gets stuck you can use a pin punch to drive it out.  Fitted facing downwards you cant hit it as you can't get to it.

I can't view the pics at work (security block) but I did take a very quick peek before I left home. 
From memory it looks as though it would be a good idea to take the plunger out and clean it.  To do this you need to undo the engine mounting and take the end cover off.  Panic ye not, it's not as big a job as it sounds, and as long as nothing is rounded or siezed shouldn't take more than 90-odd mins to do.
Be prepared to replace the plunger, clevis pin and arm - all three things wear surprisingly quickly on a car that is used properly.  The pushrod and top clevis pin may also be worn.  The release bearings are sealed units (held in place by a rubber band !) and I've yet to have a Verto one fail.

There are things you can try with the cover still in place on the car if you don't want to get that far into it (though I'd suggest the cover will have to come off sooner or later). 
Make sure the split pin has either been withdrawn or the ends cut off dead flush with the flanks of the clevis pin.
Use some emery cloth to clean the protruding bit of pin, and soak everything in penetrating oil.  WD40 is NOT penetrating oil - Plusgas, Liquid Wrench etc are waaay better.
Consider using a hot spanner to help ease it out.
If it still won't budge, you may need to cut the top off the clevis pin and beat it through the housing.  The broken G-clamp doesn't mean it won't move, just that it will need an impact to shift it instead of a constant increase in pressure.
All of the above applies with it out of the car too.

Hi all,

Just to bring this back to the original thread - a local NYC mechanic to handle the Verto clutch arm & piston replacement... I've got 3 questions for the group...

I met with Buddy at Barnett this afternoon and he seems to know his stuff car-wise (he's right now restoring a vintage 50's Chevy Bel Aire, a 60's Corvette Stingray and has a classic late 60's Toyota Corona and a late 70's 280Z in for some work as well).  That said, Andre is "the Mini guy" and he wont be in until tomorrow to look things over, but Buddy had two questions for me that I want to pose to the group before I guess/answer them:

Q1. Is there any sort of bushing in the clutch end housing cover that the plunger should ride in? (I don't see one in any of the exploded diagrams I have, so I would say "No")

Q2. If not, just how much "play" or looseness should be there for the plunger? (mine is pretty free floating, which I thought might be normal - that maybe it just needed some grease to "take up the slack" - but Buddy was concerned that it need a bushing or might even warrant replacing the housing end cover with one that has a tigher, less worn plunger hole)

Another way to ask Q2 is this: Should the plunger feel snug when it moves in and out (like an SU carb piston) or should it be free to "rattle around a little"?

(also just for my own curiosity, when you get a clutch release bearing - Part No: GRB239 - is that pre-greased or should we be taking it apart and packing it before installing it?)

Thanks in advance everybody!

Jim

 

Trust me i know a joke and from a normal poster and that may fly but you constantly bring re vins up give it a rest for once. I filled out my profile with the requirements provided by the owners of this site not to your requirements.

Call it what you like facts are facts nothing snidey.

Perhaps you should try posting the same comment using your usual username instead of hiding behind an alias ?
If you don't have the balls to pass a snidey comment without hiding, then it's obviously something you are too afraid to say.

Besides, the '91 one comment was a joke... something you obviously don't understand... even though i'm pretty certain I know who you are, we've met more than once and you should therefore know my sense of humour.

Well stated Hope to buy.

Alex you should be aware of what owners have done before you make assumptions and put your foot in your mouth. To be honest your condescending remarks are getting old. As for the 91 re vin year comment that horse has been beat to death and furthermore why it concerns you (as you live in the UK) is beyond me. I guess you would have no trouble selling Mini owners some parts for re vinned Mini's though, i am sure it amounts for a large percentage of your sales in the US and if you are that set against re vins maybe you should stop selling parts to the owners of them.

Hi Alex,

I HAVE handled every other job myself curbside thus far in my three years of ownership:

Replacement of leaking float bowl (previous own epoxyied a hole in it) and tuning of the HIF44 carb; Replacement of the clutch slave cylinder; Replacement of a rear brake cylinder & both sets of shoes; Replacement of the front brake pads; Replacement of the dizzy cap and wires and plugs; Installation of an AGM battery; Installation of an after market alarm; Repair of the passenger window glass & window crank; Replacement of the rear window seal; Repair of the defroster; Replacement of the antenna; Replacement of the front suspension cones (also installed Hi-Los) & refreshed top arm shafts; Replacement of the water pump & hoses; Installed aftermarket inertial, auto-retracting rear seatbelts; Replacement of engine steady bushes (and re-replacement after teaching both kids to drive a stick - my daughter passed her driving test in the Mini!); Parking brake adjustment; Rewiring of the headlights when rats chewed through the wires; Refurbishment of the original fuse box when blinkers, reverse and brake lights became intermittant; Replacement of the in-cockpit heater core; Replacement of the exhaust from the LCB pipes back; Plumbing the sunroof water management channels that were stupidly capped off.  I've even performed my own sunroof repairs when the cable jumped some teeth; I've fitted an aftermarket interior hood release; undercoated the car and done some minor body/rust work, etc.

But this... This has me stuck. Why? Because the clutch pivot clevis is galvanize-rusted-seized in place - see the photos and see where I tried to press it out after grinding away the cotter pin - but instead I ended up breaking my C-clamp!  It doesn't spin, it doesn't slide, it doesn't move.  period.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0vZwG7jEv81dFRKa3lhRVJabnhtVUZvZ01kNGNLU2pTVHVj/view?usp=sharing 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0vZwG7jEv81YkpFS2pPZVBpaVFCeWZFeHBraThMUFhFR0tN/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0vZwG7jEv81Sm1OSWJHLTA1RkY0azVicFpORnF2V2Q1TFZj/view?usp=sharing 

 

And believe me: I am right there with you on the "you need to do this yourself" creedo.  Thus far, I have only taken the Mini to a mechanic for these two things:

New tires mounted - followed by a different mechanic for replacement of a sheared off rear wheel stud that was broken off by the tire guys and their over zealous air-wrenches 

CV boot, steering rack boot & ball joint renewal by a guy in Manhattan over a winter when I wasn't driving the car and stupidly thought: "Hell, I can just get this done for me" - unfortunately followed by a visit to same stud-fix mechanic to replace the front rotors (which I sourced myself from Autoplicity for a great price and cheap shipping) because the originals got warped after some spirited driving I did, not knowing that the ball joint people had over torqued the lugs - when the rotors cooled, they got all "Pringles" shaped and I had "unhappy noises" and a lot of brake pedal vibration.

And unfortunately, I even ended up back at the stud-fix/rotor mechanic because I kept hearing a squeal with the new rotors - he said I needed a new wheel bearing, but I proved that the new rotors were scraping against the pad clamp-spring-clips when the wheel was fully turned.  A few minutes at the grinder to widen the slot/gap in the spring clip solved the issue.  

But note too that I ALSO had to re-do ALL the CV boot clamping because they all slipped off within a few months (if only they had slipped off earlier I might have removed and re-torqued the wheels myself and avoided the above!)

So you can imagine, I'm not too keen on relying on other mechanics. 

Anyway, in this case, I can't even try a simple adjustment because even the stop & lock nuts on the plunger won't free up, even with penetrating oil.  And I do't want to apply too much force for fear of snapping off the clutch arm's ball end and rendering the Mini virtually un-driveable other than starting in gear with a clear run in front of me!  And I simply don't want to apply heat as I  suspect it will destroy the o-ring holding the bearing onto the plunger and then I won't be able to drive the car at all unless I pull the clutch end cover off, which entails jacking up the engine.  

If I had an actual driveway and I didn't have to worry about taxis driving by and running over my legs, I would probably handle this job myself too - hell, it didn't bother me to look like an "engine bay parts" yard sale on the sidewalk the afternoon I replaced the water pump.  And I bought the car to tinker with after all.  But this has got me stymied.

So although I appreciate your "90 minute" assessment, I hope you can also appreciate why I am seeking a reputable LOCAL mechanic who knows these cars and who I can trust for this job and maybe some other "big" work down the road.

(Oh, and yes, my Mini was registered in the States as a '76 by the previous owners and I bought it as such and that's exactly what it looks like on the outside (well, except for the side repeater lights, and the rear seatbelts, and...).  But the engine and clutch in it is from a '91 Mainstream Cooper and I didn't want to confuse things by having people wonder why I was describing a Verto clutch in a '76, seeing as how they didn't appear on the scene until the early '80s.)

Thanks for checking in on me Conrad and for the second recommendation for Pete at Midnight. 

You are right that it is a shame he is so far away - the ~1hr drive out to Newton is not too daunting, but it is the 2.5+ hours back to NYC on multiple modes of mass transit that I don't look forward to if I need to leave the Mini.

For those keeping track, that's two recommendations for Midnight (from Conrad and Joe Curto); and two recommendations for Manning Imports (from Tom Abbe and Joe Curto).

But even Manning is a 45 minute drive and about 2 hours for the mass transit trip home to NYC.

Fortunately, Andre at Barnett has set an appointment for me (the afternoon of 9/29).  This is favorable because Barnett in LIC is just a 20 minute drive out and a 30 minute subway back to Manhattan if I need to leave the Mini.

I'll let everyone know more after I see him,

Jim

Even working kerbside in Manhatten, changing the clutch plunger shouldn't take more than 90 mins.

If you are going to keep a Mini long term, you NEED to be able to work on it yourself as it requires rountine maintenance and tinkering.
Taking it to a garage for major work is one thing, but will soon become very expensive and tiresome.

I'm sure it isn't really a '91... not until next year anyway...

Hey Hopetobuyclassicmini

just checking how the mechanic search went. Pete at midnight auto is very knowledgable, he had my car for a few months and got my bmw k1100 head conversion motor running.. he went through the who car, because i took it down to bare bones, and put some new parts, he pretty much went over my work. did some nice custom work on it too.. its a shame he is so far from me in the bronx. so if you had any reservations about taking it to him, you shouldnt Conrad

Thanks for suggesting Joe Curto MiniMike - he replied super quick (as he always does) and had these great suggestions:

"I know of 3 shops one on Long Island. One in Long Island city and one in Jersey:

Manning Imports / Joe Manning, 2 Glenola Ave., Seacliff, NY 11579 516-674-8106

Barnett Auto / Andre & Buddy, 4425 Barnett Ave., Sunnyside, NY 11104 845-707-1844 / 718-786-5640

Midnight Auto / Pete, 6 Paulinskill Lake Road, Newton, NJ 07860 973-383-8859

Midnight is a Mini specialist and the other 2 are familiar with British cars.
There is also a shop on the upper East side in the 70's shop manager is Alan Gerst but I do not know the shop name.
The guys at Barnett are very good - they are servicing an MGB, an XK 150 Jag as well as a 2 CV citron. Ask for Andre, tell him I sent you."
-Joe

 

Since I need to factor in mass transit for drop-off and pickup...

Midnite, while only a 1.5 hour drive there, it is 2.5 hours for the mass transit home to NYC... so not looking so good :-(

Manning is a 45 minute drive and about 2 hours for the mass transit trip home to NYC, and Thomas Abbe also recommended Manning Motors, so I have secured an appointment with them - the only trouble is, they are so busy, they can't see me until a month away, their first available appointment is on Oct 5th.

BTW, I emailed Tuxedo Flyin'Ace - awaiting a response. They too are pretty far, about 1 hour drive, 2 hrs mass transit home, not unlike Shade Tree, 1 hr / 2 hrs.

Note that I also found Beek's Auto / Derick Karabec, 3128 Route 44 55, Gardiner, NY, recommended in another post in this forum, but that is an hour and forty five minutes driving and Google maps can't even calculate a return trip on mass transit - so I guess only for the up-upstate folks!

Barnett, though, is a twenty minute drive and a half hour mass transit home to NYC, so that is looking very promising.

Oh, I am definitely NOT getting rid of it CupCake! (My daughter has already said it's hers when I die!) And I am right with you on it being a shame there are no places like the DIY Garages in Texas and other states. I suppose there's too much fear of litigation in NYS should someone get hurt while under a lift...

Thanks for the recommendation to call Joe MiniMike - I hadn't thought to do that.

I know Joe from when he sourced an HIF44 float bowl cover for me when mine started leaking two or three weeks after I bought my Mini - believe it or not, someone - and I'm not saying it was the PO/Seller - but someone - "fixed" a pinhole leak in the float bowl cover with epoxy! The gas basically ate its way through it and I was dripping a combustible, flammable liquid until I cut the fuel pump line and stuck a cutoff valve in.

Then I found Joe. And Joe met me at the train station in Queens, new cover and gasket in hand, and sent me on my way with some very good advice on refitting everything.

Joe is Aces in my book, but I never thought to ask him about clutch work!

Thanks you guys!

Call Joe Curto in Queens 718 762-7878.  He's the SU carb guru for decades and if he doesn't have a mechanic working in his shop, he can give

you a good recomendation.

Back in the day there were garages that would rent space for DIY repairs. I would imagine that they are long gone now but I would also think there is still a need especially in urban areas like Manhattan. Its a shame to have to get rid of your classic car because you have no place to work on it.