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 Posted: Jun 21, 2017 10:41AM
Total posts: 517
Last post: Aug 13, 2017
Member since:Mar 11, 2010
BO
Quote:
Originally Posted by swindrum
Rosebud, we use Mobile 1


I presume you mean Mobil 1.

But the only Diesel formulation Mobil 1 has is their "Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck". The rest of their diesel oils come under their Delvac line of oils. Most Mobil 1 oils are gasoline formulas that you do not want.

 Posted: Jun 21, 2017 10:16AM
Total posts: 1351
Last post: Jul 24, 2017
Member since:Sep 8, 2003
CA
Rosebud, we use Mobile 1

Sean Windrum

1996 MGF VVC
1970 1275 GT Racer
66 Austin Countryman
63 997 Cooper (Under Construction)
63 MG 1100

 

 Posted: Jun 21, 2017 05:11AM
Total posts: 517
Last post: Aug 13, 2017
Member since:Mar 11, 2010
BO
Quote:
Originally Posted by onetim
Ok found a couple locally, 

Mobil Delvac MXF2 API CI-4 PLUS, Gas & Diesel use 15W-40 conventional

Castrol GTX Diesel API CJ4, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CS, SL or SLSJ Gas & Diesel use 15W-40 conventional.

The Mobil site says its for high performance gas, extreme pressure, high zinc.

On the right track here?

Yes, that is the right track. Also: Chevron's Delo, Shell's Rotella, etc.
A good place to look (other than Amazon) is a store that caters to the diesel pickup crowd.

 Posted: Jun 21, 2017 05:03AM
Total posts: 105
Last post: Aug 15, 2017
Member since:Jul 24, 2014
Ok found a couple locally, 

Mobil Delvac MXF2 API CI-4 PLUS, Gas & Diesel use 15W-40 conventional

Castrol GTX Diesel API CJ4, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, CF-4, CS, SL or SLSJ Gas & Diesel use 15W-40 conventional.

The Mobil site says its for high performance gas, extreme pressure, high zinc.

On the right track here?

 Posted: Jun 21, 2017 04:26AM
Total posts: 517
Last post: Aug 13, 2017
Member since:Mar 11, 2010
BO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosebud
Quote:
Originally Posted by swindrum

...but with the full syn, the synchros are lasting way longer and the shifts are buttery smooth. 

 

Hmm... that has not be my (limited) experience. I'm getting more crunch w/ synthetic 5w-50, less w/ conventional 5w/50. I can understand why your synchros are lasting longer w/ syn, but I would expect more, not less crunch. Care to share what brand synthetic your using? I honestly wouldn't expect much difference between bands, but Jet Motors claims Amsoil 5w-50 synthetic is crunch-free. Richard1 makes some interesting points re: diesel spec oil. Hey Richard, you neglected to tell us—is the diesel spec oil you speak of syn or conventional?


I'm referring to Diesel, both for synthetic or mineral. IGNORE all gasoline spec oils. Ignore SN or SN/CF. Go for CI-4, CI-4/SN, CJ-4/SN, etc. (that is because the rules allow you to put an applicable gasoline spec to the left of a diesel spec in case you don't have a modern catalytic converter and want to run one oil in all.) I'm betting that all of the people with problems with synthetics are using gasoline engine oils. Don't get me wrong, SN oils are great for modern cars. They are so slippery that they improve mileage and reduce wear in modern engines. But they are real bad for higher pressures and for stopping synchronizers.


Your comment on less crunch with conventional 5W-50 confuses me, as there are no 5W-50 mineral oils that I know of. That would be a huge amount of VI improvers that would get torn up in the transmission. 

For those that want to dig deeper into this, I suggest this link http://www.widman.biz/Corvair/English/Links/Oil.html . It was originally written for other classics, but applies even more to Mini's with the transmission issue. That page is an introduction to the pdf that explains it all.

 Posted: Jun 20, 2017 05:05PM
 Edited:  Jun 20, 2017 05:06PM
Total posts: 812
Last post: Aug 16, 2017
Member since:Jul 15, 2008
US
Quote:
Originally Posted by swindrum

...but with the full syn, the synchros are lasting way longer and the shifts are buttery smooth. 

 

Hmm... that has not be my (limited) experience. I'm getting more crunch w/ synthetic 5w-50, less w/ conventional 5w/50. I can understand why your synchros are lasting longer w/ syn, but I would expect more, not less crunch. Care to share what brand synthetic your using? I honestly wouldn't expect much difference between bands, but Jet Motors claims Amsoil 5w-50 synthetic is crunch-free. Richard1 makes some interesting points re: diesel spec oil. Hey Richard, you neglected to tell us—is the diesel spec oil you speak of syn or conventional?

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports

 Posted: Jun 20, 2017 02:47PM
Total posts: 517
Last post: Aug 13, 2017
Member since:Mar 11, 2010
BO
bluedragon has most of it pretty clear, but I want to add a bit that no one has even touched:

 1. A gasoline engine oil API SN is what causes the sychronizers to slip. It has nothing to with synthetic or mineral. It is the energy conserving additives that make it more slippery. So you should look for a diesel formulation. Diesel formulations (CI-4, CJ-4) not only have high enough zinc for our engines, but normally will pass GL-4 gear testing and MA1 friction tests (good for synchronizers).

2. Synthetics do not soften seals more than mineral oils. There are tests they have to pass for solvency and softening All SN oils must pass the same tests. A High Mileage oil may contain some softening synthetics added, but you won't find them in a Diesel formulation. There is often confusion when the synthetic is thinner than the mineral oil (by spec), that people blame on the fact that it was synthetic, not the viscosity (a 5W-50 is thinner at room temp than 20W-50).

3. For most people, with an engine and transmission in good shape, a 15W-40 will work better than a 20W-50. I'd say 10W-40, but you probably won't find 10W-40 for diesels. 5W-40 would be an ideal synthetic.

4. If your Mini has an automatic transmission: forget everything you have read in this post and buy 10W-40 Motorcycle oil that meets JASO MA2 specs. 

 Posted: Jun 20, 2017 01:16PM
Total posts: 1351
Last post: Jul 24, 2017
Member since:Sep 8, 2003
CA

I agree, it does fly in the face of what you would expect, but with the full syn, the synchros are lasting way longer and the shifts are buttery smooth. We used to tell the team to live without 2nd gear because the gear change would always crunch. We were starting to get low on synchros and good 2nd gears, not to mention the particles being crunched off and sent into the oil flow. We have the confidence to use 2nd gear now and after 3 races, (x 14 hours each) and a track day, the shift is as smooth as ever with no crunch.

 

Sean Windrum

1996 MGF VVC
1970 1275 GT Racer
66 Austin Countryman
63 997 Cooper (Under Construction)
63 MG 1100

 

 Posted: Jun 19, 2017 08:03PM
Total posts: 812
Last post: Aug 16, 2017
Member since:Jul 15, 2008
US
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minimike1
this is for a bare shell build I started 25 years ago, and haven't looked at it in 20 years.
25 years. Time flys, eh? Good that you've decided to get to work on it. Enjoy!

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports

 Posted: Jun 19, 2017 07:57PM
Total posts: 6302
Last post: Aug 6, 2017
Member since:Feb 26, 1999
this is for a bare shell build I started 25 years ago, and haven't looked at it in 20 years.  I'll go with the zinc rich oil for break in and maybe a couple of oil changes after that.   I'll reserve the right to switch to synthetic down the road, but right now, I'll see how it runs in on one of the zinc rich oils mentioned above.

 Posted: Jun 19, 2017 05:18PM
 Edited:  Jun 19, 2017 06:10PM
Total posts: 812
Last post: Aug 16, 2017
Member since:Jul 15, 2008
US
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minimike1

iIm thinking I"ll stay with conventional 20-5. the engine design is from the 40's. and worked well with conventional oil for a good 50 years until they stopped making the mini. 

Meanwhile, no reason to ask for issues.  When it's got some high miles, I'll think about syn. 

Minimike, I'm not sure that's the "take home" message here. I think "bluedragon" got it right. Everything I've read leads me to believe that synthetic is better in every way, as long as we can agree that the best oil is the one that lubricates bestI realize our cars were designed 50+ years ago, but then as now, we want our engine's wear surfaces to slide by one another as smoothly and as frictionless as possible, no? The use of conventional break-in oil for the 1st 500 miles or so is because synthetic is so slippery that the friction surfaces of our engines don't have the opportunity to lap-in and seal properly. Other than that, the only down-side to synthetics has already been mentioned here:

1) More and bigger oil leaks. Those slippery little synthetic oil molecules seem to find ways out of an engine that conventional oil does not.
2) Our synchros don't work as well. Again, synthetic is too slippery to allow the synchros to get a good bite.
3) Synthetic is expensive.

Regarding using synthetic on a high mileage engine, I'd say do just the opposite. Synthetic when new and the engine tolerances are much tighter. Use conventional oil after the engine has become sloppy and loose—if only because the cost vs. benefit ratio of synthetic makes less sense in an older engine that will require a rebuild soon anyway. 

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports

 Posted: Jun 19, 2017 04:58PM
Total posts: 6302
Last post: Aug 6, 2017
Member since:Feb 26, 1999
iIm thinking I"ll stay with conventional 20-5. the engine design is from the 40's. and worked well with conventional oil for a good 50 years until they stopped making the mini. 


wondering , did Rover ever sell the cars off the lot with synthetic oil?


Meanwhile, no reason to ask for issues.  When it's got some high miles, I'll think about syn. 


thanks for the discussion and carry on.  I'm sure there's many more opinions I and others would like to hear.

 Posted: Jun 19, 2017 04:21PM
 Edited:  Jun 19, 2017 04:21PM
Total posts: 812
Last post: Aug 16, 2017
Member since:Jul 15, 2008
US
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedragon

4) Synchro wear - as already stated, how does lower friction cause synchros to wear out? If they do, I'd like to understand the mechanism.

Well stated. I agree with everything you have said except #4. Perhaps you misunderstood the premise. "Swindrum" was saying that his synchros were lasting longer w/ synthetic. I'm suggesting "swindrum's" reduced synchro wear is due to the superior lubrication that synthetic provides. Unfortunately, the synchros' job is to "bite" into the gear pairs to synchronize them. Better lubrication = less bite. Less bite = more crunch therefore more metal particles to circulate throughout the engine. An unfortunate paradox. Amsoil 5w-20 is fully synthetic but for some reason allows the synchros to bite and do their job. At least that's what Jet Motors says.

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports

 Posted: Jun 19, 2017 03:39PM
Total posts: 1181
Last post: Aug 8, 2017
Member since:Jan 28, 2005
The idea that synthetics are bad for a classic Mini is often repeated, but I have found no scientific explanation yet as to why this is so.

1) Synthetics resist breakdown longer and can endure higher temperatures and pressures. This is because they don't require as much in the way of additives to gain multi-viscosity properties. The additives break down over time, heat, and pressure. The oil doesn't (which is why it can be recycled.) How is this bad for an A-series motor?

2) Synthetics have lower friction. How can this be bad for an A-series motor? It doesn't matter that the transmission and engine share oil. Minis have a dry clutch, so the lower friction won't affect clutch properties unlike most motorcycles. (they require special synthetics with friction modifiers for wet clutches.) A more durable oil would seem to be an asset.

3) Leakage - synthetic oil does have a powerful detergent cleaning effect. On old, well-used engines, seals shrink, but gunk buildup helps keep them plugged up. But the synthetic detergent effect would clean the gunk out of the seals and cause leaks in the early days. Nowadays the oil has seal swelling compounds to compensate for this, but I'd still agree there's still some possibility of causing leakage. But the leakage is because crud is being cleaned out of your motor.

4) Synchro wear - as already stated, how does lower friction cause synchros to wear out? If they do, I'd like to understand the mechanism.

In fact, some synthetic motor oils qualfy as GL-3 transmission oil, and if they were more viscous (90w) they could be GL-4 oils. Brass synchros go bad if there's sulfur in the oil (a common transmission additive) but usually motor oil doesn't have much sulfur.

5) Zinc - ah, the biggest red herring IMHO (and I know I'm in the minority here.) This came up in the early 2000's when various cam makers noticed excessive wear. They then noticed declining zinc levels, put 2+2 together and IMHO came up with 3. It is more likely that the failures were due to poor quality outsourcing of valvetrain components, which picked up steam during that decade.

Yes, zinc (ZDDP) combats wear. But more is not necessarily better. More doesn't create a thicker coating with more protection. It's more like a vitamin. It floats in the oil, and where there is pressure and heat from surfaces with friction, it then bonds to those areas.

Just like a vitamin, taking 10x the daily dose doesn't do anything for you. Your body just gets rid of the excess when you visit the little boys (or girls) room. Excess ZDDP in oil just floats around unused.

If you get your oil tested when it's changed, and it shows little to no ZDDP, then you probably could use a formulation with more ZDDP in it. But if there's some left (and the testing agencies probably will point this out) then there's no need for more.

I used synthetic originally in my Mini, switched to conventional for a couple of oil changes after hearing the scare stories, then switched back after I thought about it. No excessive wear, 40,000+ miles logged, and only the usual #2 synchro starting to show signs of needing work. When I was climbing out in my Mini from Amarillo, TX to Denver CO in June, I was mighty thankful to have Redline synthetic in my crankcase. Water temperatures were getting in the upper quadrant of the gauge, but oil temps, while rising, stayed well within the acceptable limits (and I don't have an oil cooler.)

The max temp limit for a synthetic oil is considerably higher than for a conventional of the same viscosity range. Good insurance IMHO if hitting an unexpected high temp high load situation.

DLY
 Posted: Jun 19, 2017 03:05PM
Total posts: 812
Last post: Aug 16, 2017
Member since:Jul 15, 2008
US
Quote:
Originally Posted by swindrum
We have found mobil 1 full synthetic 15-50 to work great in the LeMons racer. We change it every 900miles or so though, so I can't comment on the longevity. However, we are on our 5th race (80hours or so ) with the same synchros, which was unheard of when we were using dino oil. We were changing the 2nd gear synchro after every race.


Hmm... the same super-lubrication that synthetic provides keeps the synchros from "biting in" also keeps the synchros from wearing out? Makes sense to me. Of course the downside is the excessive wear on the gears every time the synchros allow the gears to crunch. With the trans and motor sharing the same oil, all of those metallic particles from the crunching gears cycles through the motor. On the other hand, if you change oil every 900 miles it's a win-win for a race car, but of course expensive for a daily driver. Thank you "swindrum" for a different perspective. 

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports

 Posted: Jun 19, 2017 10:39AM
Total posts: 1351
Last post: Jul 24, 2017
Member since:Sep 8, 2003
CA
We have found mobil 1 full synthetic 15-50 to work great in the LeMons racer. We change it every 900miles or so though, so I can't comment on the longevity. However, we are on our 5th race (80hours or so ) with the same synchros, which was unheard of when we were using dino oil. We were changing the 2nd gear synchro after every race.

Sean Windrum

1996 MGF VVC
1970 1275 GT Racer
66 Austin Countryman
63 997 Cooper (Under Construction)
63 MG 1100

 

 Posted: Jun 19, 2017 10:31AM
Total posts: 9405
Last post: Aug 18, 2017
Member since:Mar 24, 1999
GB
Being politically correct. Millers is no longer recommended by several experts in the field.

Being politically incorrect, it's sh*t and has cost me two engines.

By all accounts they have lost their head petrochemist, and things ain't what they used to be...

Metric is for people who can't do fractions...

 Posted: Jun 19, 2017 07:38AM
Total posts: 105
Last post: Aug 15, 2017
Member since:Jul 24, 2014
Following this closely, Would love to know a good choice, post break in, for an everyday A+ I see no mention of Millers mini oil, so I assume that's not a good choice. But at least with Millers, if my clutch gets wet it will still work? right?

Now with Tetrahydrozoline!, to get the red out!, Now with Retsin!, for fresh breath, Oxyclean! for all your iodine stains! ETC

 Posted: Jun 19, 2017 06:30AM
Total posts: 144
Last post: Aug 10, 2017
Member since:Feb 18, 2010
US
This is not synthetic but I use Kendall GT-1 because it has the high zinc for flat tappets and I cant find the Valvoline VR-1 locally anymore.  I use the conventional 20W-50.  Here is the link

https://kendallmotoroil.com/product/gt-1-competition-motor-oil-with-liquid-titanium

 Posted: Jun 18, 2017 08:16PM
Total posts: 6302
Last post: Aug 6, 2017
Member since:Feb 26, 1999
and engine oil weight?


20 50?

Found 33 Messages

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