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 Starting Issue

 Created by: CStahl
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 Posted: Mar 6, 2016 09:04PM
 Edited:  Mar 7, 2016 06:59AM
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A friend of mine has some starting issue too,he did everything but his mini doesn't wanna start, and he end up resorting to violence.

i intentionally did not show the video because you cannot stomach what he did to his mini.   Poor mini

 

 Posted: Feb 13, 2016 07:55PM
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US
you've changed so many parts that you can't tell what the bad part was. When the condensor arrives, I'd suggest putting back all the old parts with the exception of the condensor. 
One at a time, add the new parts if the condensor doesn't fix this.
I think since it started up quickly, timing isn't far out, but you might have twisted the dizzy a tad. Mark the dizzy base and pinch bolt so you have a reference point to get 'home' to, and then see if the dizzy is loose by twisting it right or left gently. If it doesn't move, You can now loosen that pinch bolt slightly just enough to twist the dizzy.  Start the engine, and twist the dizzy one direction SLIGHTLY. If the engine smooths out, you know your timing was out of whack.  If the engine idle does not improve, twist it SLIGHTLY in the other direction.  If it improves, turn off car.  get a hold of a timing light and a Haynes work manual to teach you how to set the timing on the car. Look on ebay for the manual or maybe our host sells it.

When a car (mini especially without all the computer stuff) has running issues, first things to check are fuel and spark.
It's always best to start with the simple stuff, and like I said above, replace the items one at a time.

I'd put the old wires and plugs back (clean and regap the old plugs first) and see if that solves your problem. Sounds like it's not running on all cylinders.  could be bad wires or a bad plug(s).  And maybe the new wires or plugs are defective.

 Posted: Feb 13, 2016 08:47AM
 Edited:  Feb 13, 2016 09:18AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CStahl

I replaced the ignition points today and that seemed to make a huge difference initially. We were able to take it on its first test drive today, but on the way back in the car started running very poorly again. I think I might have a vacuum leak, but am not 100% sure. Would anyone on here have an idea as to what the issue is?

 

Mine had this symptom for 2.5 years. I did everything to the car to make it run right. I changed the condenser and all 34 HP of pure British Steel are back at my fingertips.

Mal x2.

 Posted: Feb 11, 2016 05:15PM
 Edited:  Feb 11, 2016 06:29PM
jeg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Moffet

It sounds to me like the timing has slipped. Check the timing and make sure you clamp the dizzy down. If you have a vacuum advance, it should be disconnected and capped/plugged at the carb while setting the timing at the specified rpm. Then reconnect the vaccum line and set idle speed.

To me it sounds like an ignition timing issue.  Since the car was sitting for a while, and likely without a small sliver of paper between the contact breaker point surfaces, the points were likely fusing together.  Yes, you've replaced them, but are still having difficulties and to be honest, your video didn't really show much. 

So -

What distributor have you got?  A 45D4, as fitted to many of our minis, can use either the early type GCS2118 (also refered to as p/n DSB108 or CS8 depending where you buy them) 'fixed' points or the later GCS2261 (aka DSB191) sliding-type.  It all depends which baseplate is fitted to the distributor.  I've attached images to both styles.  I've had both styles of 45D4 units.  The 45D4 entered production in 1974, but who knows what's been removed or added to the car during the past 40 years...

Here's a good article which, if you can get past the ertronix sales pitch,  sheds some light on the history:  //www.mossmotoring.com/tech-qa-fall-2006/  

 

I'll venture a suggestion - try to take a picture or a video of the engine compartment itself while the engine is running, preferably with the air filter removed if it's not a cone or pancake style filter and the grill removed in order that we can see what's going on.  I'd be surprised to see that you've got the plug wires in their proper locations or perhaps, albeit somewhat remotely unlikely, that you've incorrectly installed the contact breaker points or that your spark plugs aren't properly torqued.

In your new film, try to show us the carb from all angles, as well as the distributor. 

Assuming that you've got the suction chamber properly screwed onto the carb, and assuming that the suction chamber damper tube has some oil in it, I'd be hesitant to start twiddling with the carb settings.  Your valves didn't readjust themselves either...

Edit - if you want really good quality OEM-type parts - condenser, points, cap or rotor, then as disrespectful it may seem to our host, I'd recommend sourcing them from Martin at //www.distributordoctor.com/ in order to avoid the plague of inferior (bargain (India, China...)) parts which flood the marketplace.

2nd edit:  I read that you've a 998, so just for info to anyone that cares - lots of 850's came with HS4 carbs - several years ago, I read on the Berlen website that the Chilean market 850's came with HIF38's.  And yes, a stock 850 in standard tune can happily cruise all day long at 60-65 mph. 

The peasants are revolting...          

"Gone with the Wind" - a brief yet moving vignette concerning lactose intolerance

 Posted: Feb 11, 2016 05:08PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malsal

Replace the condenser. I have had several fail in the last few years the ones made now are junk.

Im waiting on that part to arrive . Its on backorder on this site. 

 Posted: Feb 11, 2016 05:07PM
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Replace the condenser. I have had several fail in the last few years the ones made now are junk.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: Feb 11, 2016 02:22PM
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CA

It sounds to me like the timing has slipped. Check the timing and make sure you clamp the dizzy down. If you have a vacuum advance, it should be disconnected and capped/plugged at the carb while setting the timing at the specified rpm. Then reconnect the vaccum line and set idle speed.

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Feb 11, 2016 02:19PM
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GR
Assuming you have a strobe light, you can check ignition consistency in each cylinder by watching how rhythmic is the flashing light! If you get long intervals between each flash or sporadic flashing! double check the ignition system!
a good starting point for ignition timing on a stock engine is 15-16 degrees BTDC at 1500rpm
 
 
Fuel system : work on fueling after assuring ignition is spotless, otherwise you'll be going in circles. As previous members suggested if the car was sitting for a long time check for varnish deposits or clogged fuel lines. 
 
 
 

 Posted: Feb 11, 2016 02:04PM
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US

Maybe check the connections on the new internal distributor parts to make sure nothing has come loose.

 Posted: Feb 11, 2016 01:52PM
 Edited:  Feb 11, 2016 01:56PM
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I replaced the ignition points today and that seemed to make a huge difference initially. We were able to take it on its first test drive today, but on the way back in the car started running very poorly again. I think I might have a vacuum leak, but am not 100% sure. Would anyone on here have an idea as to what the issue is?

 

Video of how the car is currently running. 

 

 Posted: Feb 10, 2016 04:49AM
 Edited:  Feb 10, 2016 04:53AM
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CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by triggerboy

Good to hear that you were able to start and ran your mini, you need to do the valve timing as well as the ignition timng, thats probably why its running a little rough. 850cc is a good engine, it gives out 34hp, it can do 25mph all day all night on winter time. (Wont overheat) If im not mistaken, that engine size is what paddy hopkirk, Altonen and timo makinen drove in the Cul d' turuni race In montecarlo.

Check also the suspension, tighten all the bolts and nuts before you drive it on the road for safety purposes. check the grounding as well.  

Have fun and enjoy your mini..

Wrong again.

  • His engine is a 998, which replaced the original 850.
  • Valve timing will NOT have changed unless he took the camshaft out. It is chain-driven off the crankshaft. The only way it could be off is if his timing chain was badly stretched - very unlikely.  (His valve lash adjsutment is probably OK too, if that is what you meant to write.)
  • 850's can and do overheat if they aren't tuned properly, maintained properly, abused or just worn out. Even in winter.
  • 850's can do much more than 25mph - mine used to top 70mph in stock form - I almost got a ticket to prove it.
  • Timmo Makinen, Paddy Hopkirk et al did not race stock 850's.
  • Cul d' turuni is spelled "Col de Turini". It was not a race, but a stage of the Monte Carlo Rally.

 

 

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Feb 9, 2016 08:08PM
 Edited:  Feb 9, 2016 08:26PM
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Good to hear that you were able to start and ran your mini, you need to do the valve timing as well as the ignition timng, thats probably why its running a little rough. 850cc is a good engine, it gives out 34hp, it can do 25mph all day all night on winter time. (Wont overheat) If im not mistaken, that engine size is what paddy hopkirk, Altonen and timo makinen drove in the Cul d' turuni race In montecarlo.

Check also the suspension, tighten all the bolts and nuts before you drive it on the road for safety purposes. check the grounding as well.  

Have fun and enjoy your mini..

 

 Posted: Feb 9, 2016 06:32PM
 Edited:  Feb 9, 2016 06:32PM
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So just some follow up on this. The car is running now! I found out a couple things with this. 

1. The carb was the issue. The fuel sat for so long that the whole carb was gummed up, and would not allow fuel, or air to pass through it.

2. The engine has been swapped from the 850 that was in the car originally for a 998cc motor.

3. The engine does run now, but it is running rough. We re-timed the motor and have been playing with the carb and it has gotten a little better. It seems that once we cleaned the points in the distributor it ran well. However it seems like it went back to running rough shortly after that. It kind of seems like it is not firing all of the cylinders consistently, so i ordered new points to help remedy the issue (I also ordered a new condensor just to be safe. This is on backorder though). Once i get this new part hopefully it will run smooth. 

 

Thank you everyone for all of the help with this!

 Posted: Jan 19, 2016 06:42AM
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If the plug wires are in the correct order that should be around number 1, then 3 4 2 counter clockwise. Those points and condenser look pretty new but as stated the quality of condensers have been a problem for a while. As long as the points look good and a gapped correctly i would just replace the condenser and see if that fixes things.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: Jan 18, 2016 04:03PM
 Edited:  Jan 18, 2016 04:08PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malsal

Put it in 3rd gear and push it backwards, you can do it with the plugs out to make it easier if need be it also helps as you can feel the compression on number 1 cylinder.

That works! Looks like cylinder one is compressing around the 2:00 o'clock position

 

And gotcha. Ill check into the condensor.

 Posted: Jan 18, 2016 03:23PM
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You appear to have serviced the ignition system with the exception of the points and condenser. I would suggest changing these then giving it another go. The quality of these components is not what it used to be so they do tend to fail quite regularly.

 Posted: Jan 18, 2016 02:55PM
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Put it in 3rd gear and push it backwards, you can do it with the plugs out to make it easier if need be it also helps as you can feel the compression on number 1 cylinder.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: Jan 18, 2016 02:46PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Moffet
Quote:
Originally Posted by CStahl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minerva
I agree....starting fluid will start anything if you have a fuel problem. Used to use it a lot back in the day. Sounds like electrical to me. Just a stupid thought...the plug wires are in the correct places are they?

Yes. The configuration should be 1,3,4,2 for firing order. So they should be configured like below:

       Spark plugs:4 | 3 | 2 | 1

Distributor Cap:

            2

               4

            1

               3

Your sketch confirms the sequence, but where is the rotor pointing when #1 cylinder is at top-dead-centre with both its valves closed? To my mind, the rotor should be pointing toward the 2:00 o'clock position (the sector you have marked 4), in which case you'd be sending spark to #4 cylinder when #1 is ready to go. In other words, you may be 180 degrees out of phase.

Dan forgive the dumb question, but how do I turn the motor over? I dont see a way to get a wrench in between the fan and the motor.

 Posted: Jan 18, 2016 02:09PM
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Having been a car-owner of many $500 "winter-beaters" in East Coast and Newfoundland winters, I KNOW that "Quick" Start has started more poorly running vehicles than I could count. Pull the air cleaner, crank 'er over and spray QS into the carb and it could raise King Tut from his tomb.

If it's not Scottish....it's crap! (Cry of the Mini Tartan Owners' Clan)

 Posted: Jan 18, 2016 01:33PM
 Edited:  Jan 18, 2016 01:37PM
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CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by triggerboy

I dunno how a starting fluid differ from gasoline?? What is its components?  To me, if the engine or electricals or fuel system has issues, it has issues, no amount of starting fluid can even start it, and if the engine has no problem, a regular gasoline is enough to start it.   Starting fluid should be categorized as snake oil. No more, no less!  And i dont bite it. 

Now that's funny (the snake-oil comment) ! Just to be clear, we are not talking about BBQ starter fluid.

Starting fluid has highly volatile combustible components like ether, which form a vapour air/fuel mixture which ignites very easily and quickly where a gas/air mixture refuses to. Such as when it is extrremely cold or humid, and attempts to start an engine have resulted in flooding or coating the intake and combustion chambers with condensed fuel.  Sometimes, even when gas and spark are present in the correct amounts, it can be extremely hard to light the mixture. Starter fluid is not so much 'snake-oil' as "dragon's breath"... it will light your fire.

 

Starting fluid

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Diethyl ether, with a small amount of oil, a trace amount of a stabilizer and a hydrocarbon propellant, has historically[1] been used to help start internal combustion engines because of its low 160 °C (320 °F) autoignition temperature.[2] Some current products sold as starting fluid are mostly volatile hydrocarbons such as heptane, (the main component of natural gasoline) with only a small portion of diethyl ether, and carbon dioxide (as a propellant).[3][4] It is often useful when starting direct injected diesel engines or lean burn spark engines running on alcohol fuel. Some formulations include butane or propane as both propellant and starting fuel.

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

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