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 Posted: Mar 4, 2021 05:32AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1963SV3
Quote:
Originally Posted by wil122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank
If this is a "bitsa" motor, I seem to recall that some inline motors had the timing marks on the timing cover visible while looking up from the bottom of the car and had pulleys marked to match those indicator marks...

OR maybe I'm thinking of another engine family...

If you have a vibration damper pulley, the elastomer could have gone bad and the outer ring slipped. Point is, you may find that your woodruff key is fine.
That's what I've got: timing teeth on the timing cover and a metal groove cut into the pulley lip. I don't think there's a way for the pulley position to slip on the damper, make that mark move, and still have a pulley that can run the accessories. Love to hear from someone that can speak with authority.
No need for any "Coulda woulda ... maybe".  

Stick a pencil in the plug hole, get a rough TDC (don't forget the compression check) and have look where the damper TDC mark is.  It moved or it didn't .... no need to debate if, maybe ....

Cheers, Ian
No doubt it moved ... just surprised at this notion that the pulley assembly itself can twist, rather than the pulley spinning on the shaft. I'll find out Sunday when I take him apart.

 Posted: Mar 3, 2021 06:53PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wil122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank
If this is a "bitsa" motor, I seem to recall that some inline motors had the timing marks on the timing cover visible while looking up from the bottom of the car and had pulleys marked to match those indicator marks...

OR maybe I'm thinking of another engine family...

If you have a vibration damper pulley, the elastomer could have gone bad and the outer ring slipped. Point is, you may find that your woodruff key is fine.
That's what I've got: timing teeth on the timing cover and a metal groove cut into the pulley lip. I don't think there's a way for the pulley position to slip on the damper, make that mark move, and still have a pulley that can run the accessories. Love to hear from someone that can speak with authority.
No need for any "Coulda woulda ... maybe".  

Stick a pencil in the plug hole, get a rough TDC (don't forget the compression check) and have look where the damper TDC mark is.  It moved or it didn't .... no need to debate if, maybe ....

Cheers, Ian

 Posted: Mar 3, 2021 02:39PM
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CA
That's right. Don't trust the old damper pulley. It will eventually get sloppy and may even come apart - I saw one that did, though it was on my Dad's 1964 Ford Fairlane with the straight six.

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Mar 3, 2021 05:24AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Moffet
As Spank says, the pulley section of the damper type pulley does slip with age. It won't feel like it to you because of the belt pressure, but under engine running heat and vibration, it will move.
So, in that scenario, I have a lower-priority repair, but should be armed with a fresh damper pulley.

 Posted: Mar 3, 2021 04:55AM
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CA
As Spank says, the pulley section of the damper type pulley does slip with age. It won't feel like it to you because of the belt pressure, but under engine running heat and vibration, it will move.

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Mar 2, 2021 09:19PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spank
If this is a "bitsa" motor, I seem to recall that some inline motors had the timing marks on the timing cover visible while looking up from the bottom of the car and had pulleys marked to match those indicator marks...

OR maybe I'm thinking of another engine family...

If you have a vibration damper pulley, the elastomer could have gone bad and the outer ring slipped. Point is, you may find that your woodruff key is fine.
That's what I've got: timing teeth on the timing cover and a metal groove cut into the pulley lip. I don't think there's a way for the pulley position to slip on the damper, make that mark move, and still have a pulley that can run the accessories. Love to hear from someone that can speak with authority.

 Posted: Mar 2, 2021 09:15PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohninCM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wil122
Well, back to basics got it. Engine on #1 TDC, verify valves closed, and the timing mark is nearly 180 degrees out. Fresh dab of paint, time from there, and he's running.
It's not uncommon to find the distributor drive gear to be 180 off from getting installed incorrectly. The drive groove for the distributor is slightly off center allowing the distributor to only fit in one orientation. So if the drive gear is 180 out the distributor rotor will point at 8:00 o'clock rather than the typical 2:00 o'clock at TDC. Take a good look at that before yanking the front pulley. 
That would move the plug tower, but wouldn't change the postion of the groove on the pulley when #1 was at top dead center.

 Posted: Mar 2, 2021 06:57PM
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US
Quote:
Originally Posted by wil122
Well, back to basics got it. Engine on #1 TDC, verify valves closed, and the timing mark is nearly 180 degrees out. Fresh dab of paint, time from there, and he's running.
It's not uncommon to find the distributor drive gear to be 180 off from getting installed incorrectly. The drive groove for the distributor is slightly off center allowing the distributor to only fit in one orientation. So if the drive gear is 180 out the distributor rotor will point at 8:00 o'clock rather than the typical 2:00 o'clock at TDC. Take a good look at that before yanking the front pulley. 

 Posted: Mar 2, 2021 06:48PM
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If this is a "bitsa" motor, I seem to recall that some inline motors had the timing marks on the timing cover visible while looking up from the bottom of the car and had pulleys marked to match those indicator marks...

OR maybe I'm thinking of another engine family...

If you have a vibration damper pulley, the elastomer could have gone bad and the outer ring slipped. Point is, you may find that your woodruff key is fine.

 Posted: Mar 2, 2021 06:13PM
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Well, back to basics got it. Engine on #1 TDC, verify valves closed, and the timing mark is nearly 180 degrees out. Fresh dab of paint, time from there, and he's running.

Now, given that I timed this engine on the mark when I first installed it, the only answer I can come up with is that the pulley has spun on the crankshaft, which further leads me to the conclusion that the woodruff key has broken.

So, failing alternate suggestions, some upcoming weekend will be spent pulling a crankshaft pulley (fortunately not that bad of a job on a Minor) and reassembling with a new key and a healthy dose of sleevelock.

 Posted: Mar 1, 2021 07:15AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Moffet
It might help if you reported what make and model of "electronic distributor" you are working with.
GEU930MS from this site: it's apparently a MiniSport-developed custom part.

 Posted: Mar 1, 2021 05:51AM
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CA
It might help if you reported what make and model of "electronic distributor" you are working with.

.

"Hang on a minute lads....I've got a great idea."

 Posted: Mar 1, 2021 05:24AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1963SV3
".....installed a new electronic distributor, the kind where, unfortunately, you cannot static time...."

To static time you just need to know exactly when the "points" open (which is what your electronic dizzy is doing electronically rather than physically).

With my older electronic system I used a transistor radio rather than the old bulb and wire you would used with physical points.  Set the radio near the 
dizzy, tune it "off station" - so all you can hear is the background static.  Now gently turn the dizzy as you would if it had points.  When the unit fires (aka points open) you should hear a sharp burst of interference on the radio....

Of course things may have moved on but there always has to be some form of reference pulse that tells the coil when to fire the plug.....

Cheers,Ian
I'll get back at this with a clear head today, but this is a really frustrating point to me. I'm used to timing with either points or the Pertronix modules, and both of them give a clear voltage change when you are in the right position that you can see with any voltmeter. Apparently this one only fires the coil when spinning at speed: I can turn the engine by hand and see nothing at  the coil at any position, but it obviously does trigger the coil when the the starter turns it.

 Posted: Feb 28, 2021 08:08PM
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".....installed a new electronic distributor, the kind where, unfortunately, you cannot static time...."

To static time you just need to know exactly when the "points" open (which is what your electronic dizzy is doing electronically rather than physically).

With my older electronic system I used a transistor radio rather than the old bulb and wire you would used with physical points.  Set the radio near the 
dizzy, tune it "off station" - so all you can hear is the background static.  Now gently turn the dizzy as you would if it had points.  When the unit fires (aka points open) you should hear a sharp burst of interference on the radio....

Of course things may have moved on but there always has to be some form of reference pulse that tells the coil when to fire the plug.....

Cheers,Ian

 Posted: Feb 28, 2021 01:36PM
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If you've got it running and idling well, that's great. Don't trust your timing light right now.

Get back to where you were and when it was running well.

Is the plug you are calling #1 the cylinder closest to the radiator? Because that's the one you that is actually cylinder #1.

Next, take a look at your cap. The rotor spins anti-clockwise (aka counter-clockwise). The next plug in sequence from cylinder #1 is Cylinder #3. Make sure that they are in the spot they are supposed to be in, the wire anti-clockwise to #1 goes to the spark plug that is 3rd from the radiator. The next in sequence on the cap is #4 and is also opposite of the one you identified as #1. Go ahead and make sure #4 on the cap is on the plug that is furthest from the radiator (or closest to the clutch). Then #2 should be self-evident, it's the last in the anti-clockwise rotation before reaching #1 again, or it is first in a clockwise rotation from cyl#1.

Now that you've confirmed the plug wires are all hooked up properly, does it still run? If so, that's good.

Next is Where are you getting your timing mark reading from with your timing light? My advice is to use the flywheel marking until you can confirm your pulley markings are accurate.

The way to make sure you are using the right flywheel mark is there should also be a backing plate/diaphragm bolt that is centered when you are using the tdc mark on the flywheel. If you are lacking / missing a tdc mark on your flywheel, you can just use the centerpoint of that bolt as your tdc mark.

Those are just some things to help you get your head in the right space.

 Posted: Feb 28, 2021 10:16AM
 Edited:  Feb 28, 2021 10:19AM
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I'm about to hurt myself and my engine, so time to stop, take a breath, and ask for help.

So, installed a new electronic distributor, the kind where, unfortunately, you cannot static time. Did my best by eyeballing rotor locations and matching the old position, and slowly twisting the distributor away from that position until it starts. Tweak a little bit, and it's running smoothly.

Put the timing light on it, and I'm running about 170 degrees ATDC. Check my probe to make sure I'm on plug 1, and no problem: I'm on plug 1.

Double-check and double check. Finally, I put my probe on plug 3, adjust the timing until that shows 3BTDC, then shut the engine down and rotate wires from 3 to 1 (matching from there in 1-3-4-2 order), the theory being that it will now fire at the right time. No joy, no start.

My brain tells me the next step is to put the plug I had correctly timed for 1 on the post where 2 was firing (as 3 and 2 will show the same on a timing light). My brain also tells me I'm flailing around on what should be a simple problem, and I must be missing something.

So, what is it? What am I missing? Or do I just swap from 2 to 1 and see whether the universe makes sense again?

Forgot: 1275 A-series, inline, with a 25D4 distributor.