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 Posted: Jul 15, 2019 02:38PM
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After all the comments about oversized spacers, I thought that would turn out to be my problem, although I installed two different bearing/spacer sets, not including the original set. What are the odds of 3 different spacers being too long?

There were several votes for a worn hub being the culprit, although I couldn't see how the wobble would be associated with a worn hub; all 3 sets of bearing races pressed in very tight.

In keeping with my pattern of throwing money at pesky problems and not looking forward to the trial & error of honing the spacer, I popped for a new hub. Much to my amazement, it solved my problem—zero wobble and zero torque steer. Still don't understand why it worked, but thanks for everyone's help.

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports

 Posted: Jul 15, 2019 01:59PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malsal
When you torqued the new bearings down to spec did you use a flat washer then fit the tapered washer after the original torque setting.
I didn't use the flat washer technique the 1st time I rebuilt the hub—I did the 2nd time. Still had the wobble.

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports

 Posted: Jun 28, 2019 04:30AM
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I have done quite a few disc front hubs. I have retained all the spacers that have come out over the last 50 years. I do not find it at all unusual to select fit spacers or even cut off a few in the lathe. I keep a front section of MK1 door glass with all grades emery paper glued to it. I made a fixture to mount hubs off the caliper lugs. Chuck it up in the big vise on the 400 lb welding table and I can torque and check float with dial indicator. I do have 5 gallon bucket of bad hubs with damaged ball joint threads or floating outer races. I do not glue races into hubs. Steve (CTR)

 Posted: Jun 27, 2019 09:12AM
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When you torqued the new bearings down to spec did you use a flat washer then fit the tapered washer after the original torque setting.
If you can isolate the play to the bearing/hub area before throwing new parts and $$$'s at it i would check the spacer length, its a whole lot cheaper (100% actually) and will also save a lot of labor changing everything over.

If in doubt, flat out. Colin Mc Rae MBE 1968-2007.

Give a car more power and it goes faster on the straights,
make a car lighter and it's faster everywhere. Colin Chapman.

 Posted: Jun 26, 2019 10:49PM
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GB

I can't watch YouTube at work.
Now that I've seen the video I'd suggest taking the wheel off and waggling the disc - with that much free play you will have no problem getting to to wobble !

With the wheel off you will have a better view of where the play is occuring.  I'm going to discount top arm, balljoints, or lower arm and say there is a colossal issue somewhere in the CV/bearing/drive flange/hub stack.

Check the splines on the CV and ensure that the drive flange slides all the way down, I've had problems in the past where the splines were poorly formed and prevented the bearing being preloaded.

 Posted: Jun 26, 2019 09:02PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosebud
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsumini
Confused. Your text says right front has wobblies. I swear your video shows left front which you said was fine in the text.
Have you checked the upper arm shaft bearings? Do the wobble check without wheel aand see if you detect relative motion anywhere.
You are correct, it is the left front that wobbles, not the right. Upper arm shaft bearing? The parts drawings show upper arm bushings (pic 1) but not bearings, although I found something called an "upper arm bearing" in the parts list (pic 2) that apparently doubles as 3-sync idler bearing (?), but no reference to where it fits into the arm. Is this the bearing you're referring to? Can you elaborate?
 
Yes that's the bearings(needle). Shaft could be worn. In the video the Nut and hub showed no relative motion; you said ball joints were good. Next joint would be Upper arm shaft(bearings) or lower arm. If i were doing it would take wheel off and wiggle it to see the wobble. Wobble is large enough that relative motion should be apparent. Klunk sounds like a large mass contacting another large mass coming from behind the wheel. In short; grab the hub and skake the s*** out of it and observe . do it until you find where it's klunking.

 Posted: Jun 26, 2019 06:16PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1963SV2
Don’t know where you found the reference to UPPER arm bushings???  As far as I am aware the upper arm has always run on 2 bearings.  

Cheers, Ian
I assumed that those red plastic things were bushings. I guess they're just dust caps. I found this repair kit; no bushings, just bearings. Thanks!

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports

 Posted: Jun 26, 2019 05:54PM
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Originally Posted by 1963SV2
Quote:
I must admit I’m a bit surprised by Alex’s comment. I have never (sic) bought a new hub in 50 years of running Minis.  I have seen ruined hubs where a bearing has been let go so long that it seizes up and the outer race spins in the hub.  But this easily detected when installing the new bearing.  

Cheers, Ian

Yeah, I know. It doesn't seem like the hub would be a wear item, although a majority of folks on this and another forum insist that a new hub solved their problem.

I'm planning to attend the Portland, OR British Car Show and autocross in September and don't have much more time to fiddle with this. I've gotten some good tips on how to isolate the source of the play, including yours. I'll have another go at it, but if I strike out I'll have no choice but to continue to replace everything upstream, starting at the hub.

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports

 Posted: Jun 26, 2019 05:53PM
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Don’t know where you found the reference to UPPER arm bushings???  As far as I am aware the upper arm has always run on 2 bearings.  You can see the grease nipple used to lubricate them just to the right of the hole for the suspension mount in the top picture of your post.

The lower arm is located by bushes... this is usually where you get movement.

Cheers, Ian

 Posted: Jun 26, 2019 05:35PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsumini
Confused. Your text says right front has wobblies. I swear your video shows left front which you said was fine in the text.
Have you checked the upper arm shaft bearings? Do the wobble check without wheel aand see if you detect relative motion anywhere.
You are correct, it is the left front that wobbles, not the right. Upper arm shaft bearing? The parts drawings show upper arm bushings (pic 1) but not bearings, although I found something called an "upper arm bearing" in the parts list (pic 2) that apparently doubles as 3-sync idler bearing (?), but no reference to where it fits into the arm. Is this the bearing you're referring to? Can you elaborate?
 

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports

 Posted: Jun 26, 2019 12:10AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosebud
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex

…so I'd suggest getting a new hub and building it up.

That's the direction I'm headed. I'd already thrown a bunch of unnecessary money trying to get this sorted; ball joints, rod ends, and two sets of bearings. I hope a new hub does the trick.
I must admit I’m a bit surprised by Alex’s comment. I have never (sic) bought a new hub in 50 years of running Minis.  I have seen ruined hubs where a bearing has been let go so long that it seizes up and the outer race spins in the hub.  But this easily detected when installing the new bearing.  

The idea is to find out what’s wrong and fix it .... not to keep throwing money at new parts in the hope that eventually the problem will go away ... probably when everything has been replaced.  Except, these days, there’s no guarantee that the new parts will actually be better than the old ones

Ball joints, steering rod ends are easily tested..... and damaged hubs are kinda obvious (once disassembled).

I recently had my car rejected at its roadworthy inspection.  They wanted me to fit new ball joints ..which I knew were relatively new and suitably tight.  Turned out the movement was actually caused by dodgy lower arm inner bushes.

(IMHO.. the best way to find the wear is to hold each joint in your hand (wrap your hand around the joint) and have suitable assistant try to waggle the wheel.  You can “feel” movement between the parts much more accurately than you can see it.

Cheers, Ian

PS has anyone done an accurate measurement of an unused Timken bearing??

 Posted: Jun 25, 2019 08:20PM
 Edited:  Jun 25, 2019 09:05PM
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Confused. Your text says right front has wobblies. I swear your video shows left front which you said was fine in the text.
Have you checked the upper arm shaft bearings? Do the wobble check without wheel aand see if you detect relative motion anywhere.

 Posted: Jun 25, 2019 07:53PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex

…so I'd suggest getting a new hub and building it up.

That's the direction I'm headed. I'd already thrown a bunch of unnecessary money trying to get this sorted; ball joints, rod ends, and two sets of bearings. I hope a new hub does the trick.

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports

 Posted: Jun 25, 2019 08:21AM
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GB
Over the years I've worked out the hard way that bearings can be changed once, maybe twice, before the hub gets baggy and high-performance scrap. 
They're not expensive in real money as the bearings and balljoints can be swapped from the old one to the new one with just a new set of seals, so I'd suggest getting a new hub and building it up.

 Posted: Jun 25, 2019 12:39AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dklawson
This is a test post.  I stripped the "https" prefix off the link and was able to paste it in my browser's address bar and it worked.
www.theminiforum.co.uk/forums/topic/318834-front-hubs-and-wheel-bearings/

Well that didn't work.  Instead, use either link above and when it fails... manually delete "https://" from the address and hit enter again.  The page should load.
Yes that works - as you say, the browser automatically adds the https - so delete it manually.

Car engines make CO2 and trees absorb CO2. By running your engine you're feeding a tree and helping the environment.

 Posted: Jun 24, 2019 04:13PM
 Edited:  Jun 24, 2019 04:16PM
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This is a test post.  I stripped the "https" prefix off the link and was able to paste it in my browser's address bar and it worked.
www.theminiforum.co.uk/forums/topic/318834-front-hubs-and-wheel-bearings/

Well that didn't work.  Instead, use either link above and when it fails... manually delete "https://" from the address and hit enter again.  The page should load.

Doug L.
 Posted: Jun 24, 2019 03:57PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dklawson
Quote:
Sorry, the link to TMF does not load for me.
I can't get the link to work either. Too bad. It contains lots of detailed info on Mini hubs, Timken bearing sets, etc. I'll fiddle with it later. Maybe I can kick-start it somehow.

 

 

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports

 Posted: Jun 24, 2019 02:54PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosebud
 
... I suppose you could infer that my hub shoulders are damaged or out of spec. How would you proceed? 

Here's some detailed info on Mini hubs and bearings, although not much is said about the spacer. [link]
Sorry, the link to TMF does not load for me.

The wobble you are seeing could be from two different causes:  a) a hub where the shoulders are too close to each other (machined out of tolerance or worn/fretted away) or b) you received bearings where the spacer was too long.  
If the two sets of bearings you are working with came out of the same production lot and the grinders were not set up correctly... it could just be the spacer length is wrong in both.  

I would start by making a phone call to Steve Gibbs and asking him if he has any suggestions for how to fix the preload and how to measure the component stack-up.  Were I still employed I would clean the parts, take them to work, and have them measured on our CMM.  Ideally I would make those measurements on both a known good setup and one with the problem parts.

If you are lucky it might be as simple as lapping the spacers to take off the excessive length.  

I am sure you've studied the parts diagrams at length already.  Regardless, take a look at the front hub section view image linked below.  Imagine part 11 (spacer) being too long.  Then you can imagine how the spacer being too long would push the inner races (part 14) left and right creating clearance between the tapered rollers and the bearing races.




Doug L.
 Posted: Jun 24, 2019 02:34PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dklawson
Quote:
If the bearing outer races are fully seated in the hub and you have wobble, shortening the spacer may allow you to take up the axial play between the bearings and develop the preload.  (Shorten the spacer and the two inner races move toward each other).  However, as Malcolm mentioned, it wouold be trial and error to get the fit right.
Thanks for your detailed post, Doug. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that even if the bearing races were seated firmly against the shoulders inside the hub when I pressed them in, the bearings might still be sloppy after torquing if my spacer is too long? Since two sets of bearings and races both produced a wobble, I suppose you could infer that my hub shoulders are damaged or out of spec. How would you proceed? 

Here's some detailed info on Mini hubs and bearings, although not much is said about the spacer. [link]

 

Michael, Santa Barbara, CA

. . . the sled, not the flower

      Poser MotorSports

 Posted: Jun 24, 2019 01:43PM
 Edited:  Jun 24, 2019 01:44PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosebud
 
1) Both races were a tight press fit. 2) Still not sure what the spacer is all about. Why would I want to sand it or alter its length?
Most rear-wheel drive cars I worked on in my youth had taper roller bearings where you would torque  the castellated nut to some value then back off a certain amount and fit the split pin.  The torque applied seated the bearings and backing off the specified amount achieved the desired preload.  The Mini is different.

For whatever reason the designers of the Mini took a different path.  The preload on the Mini's wheel bearings is controlled by the tolerance of the stacked up parts.  As you observed, the spacer is not a press fit on anything.  It's inside and outside diameters can even be a little loose.  However, the spacer is supposed to have a closely controlled length that is matched with a particular pair of bearings.

The idea with the Mini is that the outer races are fully seated on shoulders inside the bore of the hub.  Tightening the castellated nut pulls all the components on the central axis together (rollers, inner races, and spacer) to create the preload.  Everything has to be machined to tight tolerances.  If the spacer is too short, tightening the castellated nut makes the preload too high and the bearings wear.  Make the spacer too long and there is no preload and things can wobble.  If the hub is worn (the bearing outside diameters are not a press fit OR the shoulders inside the hub are damaged) then the preload may not develop.

Somewhere there is probably a spec that says that with the spacer held between the two bearings with an axial load of "Y", the thickness of the stacked components should be "Z".  I have never seen published values for Y or Z nor mention of how that would be held and measured.  That's where the suggestion to shorten the spacer comes in.  If the bearing outer races are fully seated in the hub and you have wobble, shortening the spacer may allow you to take up the axial play between the bearings and develop the preload.  (Shorten the spacer and the two inner races move toward each other).  However, as Malcolm mentioned, it wouold be trial and error to get the fit right.  Whatever you do, do not take the spacer to a belt sander.  The material removed is likely to be on the order of a few thousandths and the spacer's flat surfaces should be kept as parallel as possible.  Contact Steve and see what he suggests.

Doug L.

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